General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
My players see things like monsters with tons of hitpoints, high initiatives, a wide array of different powers that recharge during the fight, etc, and honestly think that monsters are better than PCs.
Solo monsters are better than the PCs.
Elite monsters... It's a toss up. They have high hit points, and tend to have more and better powers than normal monsters, but I don't know if that's enough to say that they're outright better than a PC.
Regular monsters? Definitely not.
PCs have a lot more options and tend to be able to do a lot more damage.
Running the game is actually fun and enjoyable. That's the biggest difference I've seen.
This is one of the my favorite things too, because I can sketch out a couple of ideas over the week and put together 2-3 encounters and a skill challenge the morning of game day. The rest of my spare time is spent thinking about things like plot hooks and character development.
With 3rd edition, I would have to spend a good deal of time almost every day of the week to prepare nearly as much material, and my sessions were very combat heavy because I spent all my time making unique monsters and NPCs and didn't get much time to worry about plot devices.
The other thing, and the absolute best thing, about 4th edition for me is how easy it is to pick up and play. The one player in my group that always had to have someone else help figure out her attack and damage rolls in 3e and was never very clear on the rules had no problems after just a couple session or two of 4e. I also run a monthly game that often has new people in it that have never played before, and everyone has been able to pick it up and follow along after just a few rounds of combat.
I would say the single mechanic and the sameness of the powers.
In previous editions different mechanics were by different classes to reflect the various sources of power. (melee, psionics, arcane etc) In 4E a single mechanic encompasses all powers & abilities, with a simple, short description used to describe where that power came from. Without that short description all powers seem inter-changeable to me.
__________________ Just be thankful I'm not a twin.
I would say the single mechanic and the sameness of the powers.
To be fair, there is some difference. None of the martial classes have area bursts. In fact, they only have close bursts, and the rogue has Blinding Barrage, all which require weapons.
Divine classes are the only ones with channel divinity. Scratch out the name "Divinity", and you still have a mechanic which says "You have two (or more) powers, but you can only use one of these in an encounter."
Players stopped coming up with interesting combat tricks, and instead just use the interesting (supposedly) combat tricks they automatically get. That has gotten boring for me.
Players complain about needing a battle map more than before.
Combat takes so much damn longer than before. Not individual rounds; they're about the same, maybe even a little faster because there are fewer fiddly numbers to track. But the combat as a whole starts with 2 or 3 rounds of cool action, and then four or five rounds of grinding down enemies' hit points until they die. This leads to me having lots of people surrender when they realize they're beaten, but in the encounters where people would fight to the death, I started just killing people at their bloodied rating, because the fights were getting tedious.
I don't want to read the books. They're ugly. Thus, I have less familiarity with the rules than I did when I was several months into 3e.
I have no idea how to make NPC stats. Like, none at all. Apparently I'm not supposed to build them like PCs, but I can't find the rules that explain it. So all my NPCs act like monsters, which gets a little odd.
Again, fights all are just PCs looking at their cards and deciding which power to use, instead of trying things that are cool on their own.
I like the core of 4e, but powers and the art just don't do it for me.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Again, fights all are just PCs looking at their cards and deciding which power to use, instead of trying things that are cool on their own.
I like the core of 4e, but powers and the art just don't do it for me.
I like the core too, and the DM side is fun, but i don't know if i would want to be a player in 4e. Superficially i don't much like the powers, and spellcasters seem downright boring compared to past incarnations.
We really enjoying 4e, but i foresee a day when we're going to hit a wall of "Been Here, Done That." I suppose all games have this, it's just a matter of time.
Although we do have players attempting ideas outside of the rules, and i have been using the "Yes" rule almost exclusively, even if i inwardly cringe a little. In the end, it works out just fine.
The resolution mechanics rules are more flexible, covering more actions, while being simpler to use.
__________________ "If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway, "A Farewell to Arms" Burning Empires:Boldaq Keep on the Shadowfell
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I'm torn between ease of running it versus ease of prep. Those are both definitely huge strengths. I guess for now, I have to come down on the side of ease of prep.
I did enjoy running it, and it was a breeze, even with 8 players and only one set of books. Heck, even the first game went well, which is rare for a new system.
OTOH, based on previews, I expected the ease of prep thing to be something that only really shone the higher level the PCs went. What I didn't expect was ease of prep to be there from the get go, starting with 2nd level characters. It took me longer to do the 8 pregen PCs than it did to do 2 complete adventures. (And I was only doing the pregens because we only had one set of rules.)
Moreover, I had a blast doing the adventures. For the first time since in almost 25 years--when I seemingly had unlimited time, I truly enjoyed every aspect of the prep. I've always enjoyed some of it, but there were always parts that seemed like work. This time, it was relaxing and fun. I accomplished a lot in a short time. And I got to enjoy that on the first try.
Players stopped coming up with interesting combat tricks, and instead just use the interesting (supposedly) combat tricks they automatically get. That has gotten boring for me.
Players complain about needing a battle map more than before.
Combat takes so much damn longer than before. Not individual rounds; they're about the same, maybe even a little faster because there are fewer fiddly numbers to track. But the combat as a whole starts with 2 or 3 rounds of cool action, and then four or five rounds of grinding down enemies' hit points until they die. This leads to me having lots of people surrender when they realize they're beaten, but in the encounters where people would fight to the death, I started just killing people at their bloodied rating, because the fights were getting tedious.
I don't want to read the books. They're ugly. Thus, I have less familiarity with the rules than I did when I was several months into 3e.
I have no idea how to make NPC stats. Like, none at all. Apparently I'm not supposed to build them like PCs, but I can't find the rules that explain it. So all my NPCs act like monsters, which gets a little odd.
Again, fights all are just PCs looking at their cards and deciding which power to use, instead of trying things that are cool on their own.
I like the core of 4e, but powers and the art just don't do it for me.
Well if you don't read the books, you cannot get the most out of the game. It seem that you are playing it, so page 42 DMG for rules on stunts not covered by the rules. Read it and encourage your players. Monster creation is on the DM tool box, pages 172 to 193, I would encourage you to read all of it. It explains how to adjust monster levels, to create monster and NPC and so forth. Well worth the read.
Um! since I posted I suppose I should answer the OP's question. I like DM'ing again. Under 3.x I would only DM a published adventure but I could see myself starting a homebrew sometime in the future. Since I and DM'ing the Keep on the Shadowfell and followups and Scales of War, that homebrew could be a time away.
I have only had one session as a player so far, and it was mostly rp investigation stuff, which is pretty much the same as always, on the combat side, I have not seen enough as a player to comment yet. As a DM, I like it because there are only a limited number of effects the monsters can pull of so little chance it will get lost in the statblock.
Players stopped coming up with interesting combat tricks, and instead just use the interesting (supposedly) combat tricks they automatically get. That has gotten boring for me.
Could you elaborate on the old 'interesting combat tricks'?
Grapple? Bull rush? Power Attack? Spells?
At higher levels it gets much more interesting IMO. You have many more options to choose from, and more abilities to change the battlefield, both from the enemy and PC perspective. Last night we were playing a paragon game and we had a fire genasi climb up a pillar, jump through a wall of fire, grab a levitating doppelganger mage and drag her into a pit of lava. It was pretty cool.
I also think that 4th edition is 'basic' D&D. I am hoping that PHB2 and other rules supplements add 'skill tricks' that let you, for example, try an athletics check vs Ref to grant combat advantage to someone you're grabbing (as the old 3.5 grapple checks did) or an Acrobatics check vs Ref to avoid combat advantage while moving (3.5 tumble). I think the underlying mechanics are still there for most of the options available in 3.5 if the game seems stale to you.
Someone mentioned battlemats. I think 4th edition games benefit when DMs give as much attention to building the environment as you would an enemy.
Liking all sorts of things. Well, it's new of course. Overall action = simpler and more playful. Played a mage and found it much easier. Playing a Ranger and finding it more tactically stimulating. Healing is fixed, so no longer does a mass heal (on either side, or both sides!) simply erase all that went before. Building a character is not as min-maxable, but just goes to show you can't get something for nothing.
I have no idea how to make NPC stats. Like, none at all. Apparently I'm not supposed to build them like PCs, but I can't find the rules that explain it.
DMG page 186-188. Which is clearly listed in the table of contents.
The feel of the game. While 3e had a solid rules system it was loose enough to encompass mechanics as different as the fighter, the sword sage, the totemist, and the binder.
4e is much more limited due to it's locked in distribution of powers.
And there is no longer a growth curve for the characters. A 1st level character no longer has to fear a lucky hit from an orc. Conversely a high level character can no longer change the course of nations or bend the weather to their will. Instead it's te same grind with bigger numbers from lvl 1 to 30. Yippie.
__________________ -Andor
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4E has rituals, use them, they're magic;
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