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Yah, I'm with you on this. The disconnect between rules for PCs and rules for NPCs/Monsters puts me off DMing completely. The nonsensical rules and powers put me off playing completely.
And see, I like the differing rules for PCs and NPCs/monsters. PCs arent monsters. Monsters arent PCs. Just like the old days.
I'm with ya on the powers though. And some of the rules (few long lasting conditions, the goofiness of the saving throw mechanic, the 'i rest and heal ALL of my hit points' , etc)
I didn't realize we were talking about the change from 1st ed. compared to everything that came after?
I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I was just answering the original question.
Quote:
Seriously, I've always found the flavor after 1st ed. to be some bits that were strikingly good, quite a lot of average or slightly below average, and a not inconsiderable amount of pure stinkers. 4E is no different, in this regard.
How easy it is to design an adventure/dungeon...
Determine "level of adventure"
Determine XP pool for adventure (Solo monster x10)
Spend XP on quests, monsters, and skill-challenges
Determine Treasure Packets
Place on Map (if needed)
Arrange to Taste, allowing for a couple "off the cuff" ideas if the PCs do something unpredictable...
And yet ... I would say this is a way to generate a set of random encounters ... not so much an adventure/dungeon.
My adventures have always started with a cool idea, and with a whole lot of interacting reasons for why there are monsters in a particular location, and why there is a problem.
A simple idea: A long time ago, a dam was built across a river. Over time, that silted over, creating a wide bog. Within the bog are the ruins of the dam, including a lock.
More recently, a necromancer made use of blocks from the dam to construct a tower. The tower is directly over the lock.
Very recently, the necromancer died. Monsters invading his tower are steadily converted into undead, and have been wandering downstream into a populated area.
Encounters: A couple of undead at a town that is downstream. A talk with the town elders. An encounter with spiders in the bog, maybe with other bog critters. A pit trap at the entrance to the tower, with a fall into the lock (along with a couple of undead trapped there). Another encounter with undead in the tower, including the undead remains of the necromancer.
And see, I like the differing rules for PCs and NPCs/monsters. PCs arent monsters. Monsters arent PCs. Just like the old days.
The sameness is something that attracted me to 3e, when it came out. I didn't like NPCs who could do things that the PCs got told "no" for. 3e also cured me of that thought. I'm happy with different rules that get similar results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomBitonti
And yet ... I would say this is a way to generate a set of random encounters ... not so much an adventure/dungeon.<snip>
I don't see anything in the 4e encounter guidelines that would restrict what you're saying -- definitely no more than there was in 3e. 4e just makes it easier to organize the numbers.
And yet ... I would say this is a way to generate a set of random encounters ... not so much an adventure/dungeon.
My adventures have always started with a cool idea, and with a whole lot of interacting reasons for why there are monsters in a particular location, and why there is a problem.
You misread my simplicity for flavorlessness. I wasn't talking about adventure DESIGN, merely implementation. I still tie my adventures together with a relatively tight cohesive narrative (In 4e so far, I've had my PCs rescue a noble from her wicked uncle and his hobgoblin mercenaries, face a group of rampaging orcs who were laying waste to local towns to appease their white-dragon "deity", and discover who betrayed, murdered, and stole the family fortune of a young merchants daughter whose ghost haunts the river near a patch of wild roses) I merely was commenting on how much easier it is to implement these plots using 4e's XP-budget and Treasure Parcel mechanics than the 3e's CR/EL and Treasure Table mechanics.
It frees me to focus on the story more and worry less about balancing CRs, for example.
I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about. I was just answering the original question.
I think you missed the connection between the emoticon on the first paragraph, and the "Seriously" that starts the second.
And of course my opinion is my opinion. One of things I really like about 4E is the way the flavor can so easily be divorced from the mechanics--which makes it far easier for me to replace the flavor with my own.
I'm with ya on the powers though. And some of the rules (few long lasting conditions, the goofiness of the saving throw mechanic, the 'i rest and heal ALL of my hit points' , etc)
It's funny, I really like the Saving Throw mechanic and, to me, the healing now actually makes much more sense - well as much as it hitpoints can make sense.
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I used to play 2e and previous with no minis. We almost hated the idea of using them... But now for the life of me, I don't think I could actually play 2e without them. I'm not really sure how the heck I managed to DM a fight without them. I guess my brain was able to track who was attacking who and were they were much better when I was 14 compaired to now that I'm 31...
I used to play 2e and previous with no minis. We almost hated the idea of using them... But now for the life of me, I don't think I could actually play 2e without them. I'm not really sure how the heck I managed to DM a fight without them. I guess my brain was able to track who was attacking who and were they were much better when I was 14 compaired to now that I'm 31...
Darn gittin older.
Exact same thing for me, except ages 16/33 rather than 14/31. :P
You misread my simplicity for flavorlessness. I wasn't talking about adventure DESIGN, merely implementation
But, what was written was "How easy it is to design an adventure/dungeon...". I agree that what was outlined is one way to implement the design. I do find telling how easy it is to too quickly step away from the ideas phase to the implementation phase. For me, the heart of the system is the how well the system helps me to express dramatic stories.
That leads me to a question ... how well does 4E help to design adventures/dungeons? I like to ask the question in this form: Is the 4E MM easy to mine for adventure ideas? Does it have more and better ideas than the 3.5E MM? Or, say, Denizens of Avendu or the Monsternomicon?
That leads me to a question ... how well does 4E help to design adventures/dungeons? I like to ask the question in this form: Is the 4E MM easy to mine for adventure ideas? Does it have more and better ideas than the 3.5E MM? Or, say, Denizens of Avendu or the Monsternomicon?
That kind of depends on certain things... Like: What do you use to "mine for ideas?"
What parts of the 3.5 MM did you routinely find inspired you?
The biggest difference for me is the ease of DMing. The sheer joy of it again. Something I had not felt since 1st edition.
After trudging through the first series of Pathfinder modules it all crystalized for me. DMing 3e SUCKS. Maybe it doesn't suck for you, but for me it was torturous.
Even in a prepared module like Pathfinder I had to do a ton of prep. Every monster or NPC with a spellcasting ability had to be looked up, the spell details noted, and the ability modifier and bonus changes for buff spells all pre-calculated so that when the PCs encountered that monster or NPC, I knew all the bonuses they should have. Paizo tried doing some of the work for me, but I consistently found errors in their stat blocks. Or they would forget a spell that I thought was important. And god forbid the PCs dispelled something. What a nightmare.
Another thing that drove me nuts was them including a monster in an encounter and then instead of reprinting the stat block, they simply referenced a page number of where that monster had previously appeared. So now I had to have multiple pages marked with post-its so I could go back. Or they simply referred to stuff in the monster manual, so now I had to have multiple books opened in front of me. The adventure, the MM, and the PHB (so I could look at spells). I had to have a little side table next to me to hold everything. Such a mess.
When I DM an adventure, I should be able to run the adventure solely from the adventure itself. During play, I should NEVER have to look up a monster ability in another book. Everything I need should be self-contained in the stat block and that stat block should appear right there in the adventure in the write up for that encounter. 4e got this right. 3e was an EPIC fail.
When 4e finally came out it was like the heavens opened and angels descended. The monster stat blocks were entirely self-contained. No need to ever look anything up. The first time I ran a 4e encounter it was like a dream. I hadn't had this feeling since 1e. I felt liberated from the accounting minutiae and drudgery of 3e.
Now 4e isn't perfect. I have little quibbles here and there. For example, I think there should be a mid-combat recharge mechanic for some powers. I think some rituals should be castable in combat. But on the whole its a vast improvement.
Exact same thing for me, except ages 16/33 rather than 14/31. :P
I think it's more nostalgia than aging brains. I can remember several very big arguments about whether someone was standing next to a monster, trap, etc. from when I was in high school. It was a mess. I probably could have been more descriptive, though I wasn't exactly just grunting and pointing. When we started using mats in late 2e, it was like a switch was thrown for clarity.
I used to play 2e and previous with no minis. We almost hated the idea of using them... But now for the life of me, I don't think I could actually play 2e without them. I'm not really sure how the heck I managed to DM a fight without them. I guess my brain was able to track who was attacking who and were they were much better when I was 14 compaired to now that I'm 31...
Darn gittin older.
Naw! Probably just out of practice. If you can't run a mile as fast as you did in high school, how much is aging body, and how much is not having run a mile in the last decade?
I had the opposite experience. I got better at running without the minis as I got older--because we have multiple couples in the group, rug rats began to appear, and it was less trouble to work without the minis than keep scale baby Godzilla from biting the head off your token. After awhile, we got pretty good at running without.
That leads me to a question ... how well does 4E help to design adventures/dungeons? I like to ask the question in this form: Is the 4E MM easy to mine for adventure ideas? Does it have more and better ideas than the 3.5E MM?
I'd say the 4E has pretty much zero material for adventure ideas. However, the 3.5 MM wasn't a lot better in that regard.
Now, in contrast to these the 2E MCs were excellent sources for adventure ideas. But that's a different topic.
in the 15 or so games ive been involved in nobody has tried a grapple....yippee
Same here. There is little point in grappling with 4E rules which is why no one wants to waste actions trying. The only way to put a stop to anything is to club the source till it runs out of hit points..........and thats gonna be a while.
So, despite all the changes to powers, classes, races, rules and the like, for me the most significant change has been the removal of the [i]wand of cure light wounds
What's do you find the most significant change or difference between the editions? (Or you can comment on the wand, if you like. )
Cheers!
G'day!
What is really funny is that in 20 years of playing DnD, we never used a Wand of Cure light wounds. So even if I were playing 4e (which I am not), I don't think I would even miss it1
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Determine "level of adventure"
Determine XP pool for adventure (Solo monster x10)
Spend XP on quests, monsters, and skill-challenges
Determine Treasure Packets
Place on Map (if needed)
Arrange to Taste, allowing for a couple "off the cuff" ideas if the PCs do something unpredictable...
TA-DA! No CR/EL nonsense, rolling (and re-rolling and re-rolling) treasure, etc. I can make and adventure in a day or two, (including stating out NPCs and templated creatures) whereas it regularly took my a week or two to do a full-adventure on paper in 3.X.
Thumbs UP.
I'm curious about this. How hard is it honestly to apply the same to 3E?
You can create treasure packets for 3E, and forget about rolling treasure.
You can swap out the CR system for a blanket XP system.
The rest of your points stem from the XP system. Do you really think it's impossible to alter 3E in just those two ways to solve your problems?
I ask because making those two changes is pretty close to what I have in mind for my next 3E campaign. I fail to see the problem.
Now... re-writing stat blocks into a more usable format, there I can agree with the 4E lovers. 3E stat blocks are hard to simplify.
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