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You can do your taxes in base 7, too. That doesn't mean it's desirable and it definitely doesn't mean it's easy...
Interesting that you'd compare the 4E encounter system with base 7
XP based on existing CR looks like a snap to me.
Page 166 of DMG (going on 3.0 here, don't have 3.5 DMG). Take each of the bold numbers as the set XP for a monster.
So: CR 1 = 300
CR 2 = 600 and so on
Then from Page 57 of DMG 4E -
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMG
XP value for a monster of the encounter's level) x (number of characters in the party)
Let's see, how can we re-arrange that to suit 3E?
We know that CR1 is supposed to be EL1 and it's worth 300 XP.
(Correct me if I'm recalling this point wrong: ) 3E is designed for a 4 character party.
Therefore 300/4 = the target amount of XP for a level 1 PC in a single encounter.
Alright. Here we go. Ready for the 'hard' bit? Target XP Reward
To find your total XP budget, multiply the number of characters in the party by one quarter of the XP value of a monster whose CR is equal to the party's average level. Target XP = (XP value for a monster of the party's average level)/4 x (number of characters in the party)
Done. That's it. There's your so called 'base 7' 3E encounter system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormwood
As long as you are willing to completely change 3e encounter design---then yes, 3e encounter design is easy.
I'm more willing to change 3E encounter design than to change an entire edition to avoid a single fault in the previous edition. I didn't argue that 3E encounter design was easy. I argued that it wasn't impossible to make it easy if you had trouble with the existing system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget
Sounds like a pretty good solution. Unearthed Arcana even had a system for converting CR to XP, IIRC.
I should really make a point of looking at that book someday.
Target XP Reward
To find your total XP budget, multiply the number of characters in the party by one quarter of the XP value of a monster whose CR is equal to the party's average level.
Target XP = (XP value for a monster of the party's average level)/4 x (number of characters in the party)
That doesn't really work though since CR does not scale linearly. You can't just fill up, say, 3000 xp worth of monsters in an encounter and expect it to work since the numbers for monsters increase so sharply. Four CR 4 creatures is not the same as a single CR 8 monster, despite being worth the same xp.
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Combat takes about 3 times as long, at least at 1st level. The rounds take longer because it's harder to decide what to do compared to 3.5 where the best option was easily decided upon. It takes much longer to kill the monsters. Their ACs and hps are pretty high compared to the attack and damage modifiers of the PC's.
The Monster Manual is a gimp book and in dire need of support/reinforcement (not hard to guestimate the goods in the meanwhile but at the cost, with the reprinted art and reduced page count, I don't feel I should have to.)
I'm not saying any of these things are bad in terms of 4e being it's own game.
But when trying to do conversion work... it ain't as easy as it could be.
To find your total XP budget, multiply the number of characters in the party by one quarter of the XP value of a monster whose CR is equal to the party's average level. Target XP = (XP value for a monster of the party's average level)/4 x (number of characters in the party)
Done. That's it. There's your so called 'base 7' 3E encounter system.
Which isn't bad, until you start mixing in monsters of more than one or two levels off from the party's level. Send a couple of Babau Demons against a four person level 3 party, and they'll have a very hard time of it, and likely lose a hero or two, unless you're adding in a lot of later supplement stuff (like spell compendium and Book of Nine Swords, and even then it's pretty swingy on who wins and loses). The monsters don't scale exponentially, but they don't scale linearly, either.
I agree with Joe, though -- conversion work is quite hard in 3E to 4E, though I learned some bad conversion lessons trying to convert things like Against the Giants from 1E to 3E. Straight conversions from any version of the game to any other don't often go well, because some creatures occupy different niches entirely between systems. A group of 9th level adventurers might handle a half dozen hill giants in a single encounter without too much problem; in a 3E or 4E encounter, they might get their heads handed to them!
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I'm curious what you consider conversion work... I would consider all the work in converting a module to be statting up the monsters and such in it, which is infinitely easier in 4e.
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Levels don't align anywhere like they used to.
I don't understand this comment at all. As in, it is completely nonsensical to me. What are you trying to say?
Quote:
The Monster Manual is a gimp book and in dire need of support/reinforcement (not hard to guestimate the goods in the meanwhile but at the cost, with the reprinted art and reduced page count, I don't feel I should have to.)
Having done a small amount of conversion from 2e to 3e, I've got to say that I find 3e to 4e far easier. Admittedly I'm doing a thematic conversion, rather than literal, but I've found that it takes me 1-2 hours to convert enough for an evening's adventures (so ~4-5 hours of actual gaming). And that's typically with 10-20% monsters straight from the MM, 50-60% just adding or removing a few levels, and the remainder as ex nihlo or extreme reskinning.
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Monsters are one part. I could go through a whole list of monsters that have been "subsumed" or changed or simply missing but it's not that hard to come up with new materal. (Unlike the art in the Monster Manual where resuse for a core book that's far smaller than the PHB was one of the orders of the day.)
In addition, encounters are simply built different. The new edition calls on a lot more... I don't want to say simple variety, but game mechanical variety where a couple of different types of monsters (controllers, brutes, soldiers, etc...) are useful for breaking up the different way characters themselves play.
Treasure another part. Intelligent magic items for example. Finding that many items work nothing like they used to such as Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Bracers of Defense.
In terms of levels, in previous editions of the game, 1st-20th was still 1st-20th. Changes here and there but the "essence" or feel of that was still the same. 4e kicks it up a notch with the new 21st-30th default assumption in the campaign.
I'm sure part of that is learning the system.
Another part is that it's quite a bit different and things don't work like they used to.
Hmm...you know, Joe raises an interesting question, what WOULD be harder?
Converting a 1e/2e monster to 3E or to 4E?
Depends a little on how you do it. But I think since the 4E monster guidelines seem far easier and less fiddly, I would think 4E might be easier - or at least more rewarding. It might be hard to come up with the unique, exception power of the critter in 4E, I don't know. But that is probably fun, because you're not doing "math", but doing something creative (within the constraints of the "power" system of 4E, of course).
The more interesting question might be - how did "encounters" change over editions? (pemerton once made a point that the idea of grouping combats into "encounters" or "encounter areas" instead of "dungeon exploration" was already a shift between AD&D and 3E and is now enforced in 4E.)
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