General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Probably one of the most important questions to ask: How long do you believe a standard combat should take?
This is not a BBEG encounter. This is one of the standard combats you have on the way there. Nothing particular difficult about it. For various editions, take the level of PCs involved to be 7, and them to be facing an appropriate challenge: they'll probably win, but take some damage along the way.
The poll doesn't look at the number of rounds; it looks at the amount of time you want to devote to any one combat.
Post also if you think this length should change depending on the levels of the characters.
Normal combat wherein I meet some goblins, kill them, and move on?
If it's taking me more than 10 minutes, it's taking me WAY TOO LONG to reach a foregone conclusion.
We all know I win, so let's just you tell me how much I have to pay (in HP's or whatever) to make you go away, give me enough time to show off, maybe show me an interesting trick or piece of local color, and get the heck out of my way. There's a dragon to slay.
I have a sneaking suspicion that this is one area where Wizards misjudged what people wanted with 4e. I enjoy 4e, but combat is taking a little too long for my tastes; about a 45-60 minutes with 5 PCs against a standard group of monsters. I personally would prefer combats in the 30 minute range: some a little more, some a little less.
I may soon go to reducing monster HP and seeing what that does; are the PCs still challenged? Is it fun for us?
Count me in the low end, around 10-20 minutes max, but preferably sub-10 minutes, even) Now, where do I absolutely want to draw the line? 30 minutes tops. Mostly because that's just about the max I'm willing to go to let players choose their actions. It's the difference between 4-5 players who know their characters inside and out, and are attentive. and 4-5 players who know the game reasonably well, but aren't attentive or simply haven't acquired enough feel for their abilities that they can choose right away what they want to do, or 4-5 players who aren't too familiar with the game and are reasonably attentive. (I'm assuming most players who aren't familiar AND aren't attentive probably don't want to play.)
I suppose that comes from a desire to simply choose either big setpiece combats (which can take quite a long time in toto, but are comprised of shorter sub-scenes that don't take a long time to move through, to keep things from dragging) or quick scenes that let the characters do Cool Things, then quickly move on to the next Cool Thing. The basic idea is though that if Cool Things aren't happening, then no one's likely having any fun. In essence, if the game is 10 minutes of fun stretched out into 4 hours, then it's stretched out way too far. Get it up to 40-50 minutes of fun per hour, and we're getting close to where things should be. I only say 40-50 because sometimes there are things aren't always all that fun, but are necessary for the game to keep moving... like making character sheet adjustments to account for new/lost/upgraded/downgraded items, even if they aren't changed in ways that make them feel interesting.
Would it happen in real life? Ehh, depends on system and players, I suppose. But I definitely have to say, fast and furious attracts me a little more than slow and measured.
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Voted 45 minutes, but that presumes that the rounds are going by fast as they should in a standard fight. My experience with face-to-face 4e isn't good enough to say whether this is how it's going to be, especially since the next campaign is going to be me running for people who don't have any experience with 4e and aren't too heavy on rules.
I made it 1 hour, but then I don't do a lot of random combat encounters in my games. I have a 1 or 2 plot related, important combat encounters per session usually and so I make them last longer...
I try to avoid "Kill 5 orcs, take their stuff" encounters... most encounters in our campaign are meaningful... still, more than 45min and I get the impression they are to long...
I voted 45 minutes, but the sad truth that it is how much I wish combat will take.
In the two groups that I'm playing with it usually bog down for about 90-120 minutes easily.
We are probably taking too much time checking things and not having enough time saving props like proper battle mat and power cards .
Anyone else has these problems or are we uniquely slow?
I voted 15-20 minutes for that level range. I would expect lower level combats to be a bit shorter. More than 30 minutes, even for a higher level should be a major encounter.
At the moment encounter length is causing my group serious concerns. We are a veteran group of D&D players with many editions and years of experience behind us and we all love trying out anything new to see if it improves the game experience yet 4th edition is really messing with our heads. For instance, last night we did the last combat in the keep on the shadowfells and it took the group 3 hours to get Kalarel to bloodied before we stopped the session. This was 9 rounds of combat, so 3 per hour or 1 full round every 20 minutes. Given that there were 9 initiative phases (5 for the players, 4 for creatures) that means roughly 2 minutes per player/creature turn. Now given this includes all the messing about, making drinks, checking powers and there were no distratcions from the game of any type i cant help but think this is an extraordinary amount of time to be taking over a combat. It certainly put me and the guys on another downer for 4e as virtually all combats we have tried are taking much too long. I am resolved to find a solution to this issue but tampering with hit points (i was pondering over the idea of halving all hit points) sounds like a recipe for everybody to suddenly become tanks or ranged classed.
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I voted 15-20 minutes for that level range. I would expect lower level combats to be a bit shorter. More than 30 minutes, even for a higher level should be a major encounter.
I voted the same. And generally agree with ya on the 30+ minutes for the major encounters.
As much as I like 4E, this is my biggest issue so far. Combats seem to go about 5-10 minutes too long sometimes. As DM, I start to lose interest and focus past 20-30 minutes. I can't imagine what it would be like to fight a dragon or some creature at high level with 500 - 1000 hps! There aren't enough interesting options to do cool stuff to have one encounter last as long as that one will.
Merric, one thing though -- aren't you the guy whose group was plowing through 3e combats in record time?
I'm imagining that in a year, you'll be back here regaling us with tales of your sessions lasting 3 hours and handling 8 combats.
I think everyone is slower than they'd like, for now, because of rules familiarity. I certainly don't have that "I know the rules like the back of my hand" feeling that I used to have with 3e. At least, not yet.
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So far, our campaign went from level 1 to 7, and combat got faster with every level. I guess it is a combination of better team play and more daily and ecnounter powers.
I have now DM'ed 20 sessions of 4E, and from my log I can see that in that time the various groups I DM for have completed 67 combat encounters, average length of session is 270 minutes, 4.5 hours. I go in for a heaped spoonful of role-play and general chitter-chatter however combat runs at 45 minutes/encounter give or take with the big bad guys/final encounters lasting around ninety minutes.
I wish the poll choices gave ranges of time rather than a single number. I would have chosen 45 to 60 minutes - Anyway, I chose 60 minutes. If a combat (any combat!) can't be kept interesting for an hour then I think something is wrong. This time period also allows for multiple combats in one session (we play about 6 hours every 2 weeks).
But honestly, the "clean-up" and consequences of fights tend to take us longer than the fights themselves.
If a typical combat takes more than 20 minutes, I have to ask "Where is the time going?". If it's the DM or players giving good descriptions of their actions, that's fine, but...
Idle banter: Not a problem of the system, maybe not even a problem if the group enjoys chit-chat.
Always looking up character data: Do your homework. Read the damned book.
Always looking up rules: This may be an issue of a player not reading enough, but it may be a sign the character or system is too complex.
Lots of rolls: This is probably a system problem. Look for shortcuts like rolling attack and damage at the same time when feasable.
Rules arguments: The DM is final arbiter of the game. The DM needs to do their homework. If a player wants to contend a rule is “stupid”, then the player needs to bring subject up before that rules is acting against the PC.
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