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I'm still not sure about Yggsburgh, it seems like it ought to have the makings of a nice sandbox setting. I thought the surrounding countryside stuff was a well done and interesting site for low level play.
Edit: It ought to fit nicely in a Renaissance setting like the Warhammer world, or with the more Gothic sorts of D&D module.
To me, Yggsburgh was a whole lot of unneeded detail about a completely uninspiring place (and the fact that they took something that I felt was already overkill of useless mundane info and decided to multiply it twenty-four-fold with the Yggsburgh Expansion Project strikes me as pure, unmitigated folly -- imagine if that level of effort (a team of a dozen+ freelancers working hard under Gary's supervision for a year or more) had gone instead into detailing the actual dungeons what we could've seen instead!).
Definitely.
One of the most incredible waste of space was that spent on the nobles. Not a single one of them has a personality. They live in a house, they have a family... and that was it. Several pages of it. Goals? Not a one.
Then there is the price of swords.
In at least one of the Yggsburgh expansion booklets, there's a store that sells items at C&C prices. Huh? Yggsburgh's economy works nothing like C&C's.
All in all, like a lot of Gary's work, it needs a competent editor. Troll Lord Games has some of the most incompetent editors in the business. (Jeff Talanian is competent, and that's why I think Upper Works is pretty good. A pity he doesn't work for TLG).
If WotC it'd be "Gary Gygax's Castle Greyhawk" or similar, and incorporated into a rebooted Greyhawk setting - possibly that mooted "Greyhawk 576 CY", which would suit me fine.
One of the most incredible waste of space was that spent on the nobles. Not a single one of them has a personality. They live in a house, they have a family... and that was it. Several pages of it. Goals? Not a one.
Can't argue with you about the long list of nobles... they really should have been fleshed out.
A fundamental rule/attitude of C&C is to do it the way you like best.
Exactly.
The thing was, I realized that when running C&C, I could put C&C back on the shelf, leave the Basic rulebooklet, Expert rulebooklet, and 1e DMG on the table, and be even closer to the way I like best with one fewer book on the table.
(^_^)
As for Gygax Games: I’m reserving judgement.
I do think that any company is better off communicating as much as possible as early as possible, (one thing TLG was pretty good about) and I wish we were hearing more from them.
__________________ (^_^)
Anything I type is only my opinion unless explicitly stated otherwise, which should go without saying. Please assume that I've left out a smiley after every sentence. Thank you.
The thing was, I realized that when running C&C, I could put C&C back on the shelf, leave the Basic rulebooklet, Expert rulebooklet, and 1e DMG on the table, and be even closer to the way I like best with one fewer book on the table.
Yeah, that's the way it went with me, too. My house-ruled C&C game became so similar to the older editions that I finally realized I'd be better off just playing the older editions. (Not saying it works like that for everyone, but it certainly did for me.)
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
Yeah, that's the way it went with me, too. My house-ruled C&C game became so similar to the older editions that I finally realized I'd be better off just playing the older editions. (Not saying it works like that for everyone, but it certainly did for me.)
I like C&C for three main reasons. The Unified mechanic that takes care of saves, skill checks, and all other checks Two, it is the easiest "core" with which I can utilize ALL of my D&D, Paladium Fantasy, GURPS, etc... together, at the same time. Three, it does all this while being even simpler to run than the RC rules.
Other than that I can see myself going back to RC or 1E.
As for Yggsburgh, I see it as classic Gary. Same kind of subtle inspiration that made me fall in love with all his old stuff. Same kind of editing and mis spelling problems all of his old TSR stuff had. Totally classic, old school, and original. Even the layout and paper stock remind me of the old materials.
The coinage issue was definitely screwed up, but considering I haven't used price lists "By the Book" practically since day one of my gaming career, using alternative price lists are second nature to me. Plus I like how you can walk into one store and buy it for "X", then walk into another store and find essentially the same item for 1/5 the price of the other store. Reminds me of the real world.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Even leaving aside the terrible editing and production I found Yggsburgh to be very lackluster and bland. There were a ton of plot hooks, sure, but most of them were both completely obvious and not very interesting; very mundane stuff that's not at all what I want to spend my limited rpg-playing time on. To me, Yggsburgh was a whole lot of unneeded detail about a completely uninspiring place (and the fact that they took something that I felt was already overkill of useless mundane info and decided to multiply it twenty-four-fold with the Yggsburgh Expansion Project strikes me as pure, unmitigated folly -- imagine if that level of effort (a team of a dozen+ freelancers working hard under Gary's supervision for a year or more) had gone instead into detailing the actual dungeons what we could've seen instead!).
Definitely. If you removed the filler from Yggsburgh, you would get a 48 page Village of Hommlet style product. Mind you, I also think Hommlet was Gary's weakest module, and I do not find it interesting outside the upper section of the Moathouse, but of course lots of people like it. Yggsburgh is way too much, and the Expansion project takes that way too much into the stratosphere.
Imagine this: Yggsburgh: 48 page saddle-stitched city & wilderness supplement, big-ass map by Darlene Dark Chateau: 32 page "Moathouse" style module Castle Zagyg: Castle Ruins: 32 page folio on the castle ruins and environs, lotsa maps Castle Zagyg: Upper Works: 32 page folio, first few dungeon levels.
(etc.)
It is my opinion that Gary worked best when he was constrained by page count; his best products are lean and mean with a lot of content by page. It shows that he had to work hard to squeeze everything he could into a slim volume. Yggsburgh and other later modules do not have this -- of course, neither does the industry (which operates on a shamefully low pay-by-words basis, making bloat almost a certainty), but that is another can of worms.
As for Gygax Games, I have so little hope about getting something I will like that any development to the contrary will be a pleasant surprise. On the other hand - and I know this will be sacrilege - amateur publishers are delivering just the type of content I would have liked to see from EGG and Rob Kuntz, and doing it without the unsatisfactory compromises, delays, heartburns and false starts. Sure, it is not That Legendary Product People Have Been Waiting for Since 1979. But after a while, you have to ask yourself what matters more -- the form of expression or simple product fetishism.
__________________ "5. If they do not wish to take a few risks, their characters should stay home and become shopkeepers and farmers.
Then wish them luck!" -- Gary Gygax: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
"Dragons are so Beowulf! Should DnD be in the business of selling 1200 year-olds back their childhood? Sheesh." -- gizmo33, on the power of nostalgia
...I know this will be sacrilege - amateur publishers are delivering just the type of content I would have liked to see from EGG and Rob Kuntz, and doing it without the unsatisfactory compromises, delays, heartburns and false starts.
That's not sacrilege at all; I agree. It really is a great time to be a gamer (even a crazy-ass, lunatic fringe old-school gamer -- or maybe that should be *especially* a crazy-ass, lunatic fringe old-school gamer...)
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
I'm not going to bash Gail, but I will say that I've recently taken an interest in C&C, and the reason was because this was the system Castle Zagyg was designed for, and that this was the system Gygax himself picked as being close enough to his original work to qualify as a true successor. The fact that this will not be fully realized under C&C makes me sad, but I look forward to seeing what they do end up doing with it.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
Imagine this: Yggsburgh: 48 page saddle-stitched city & wilderness supplement, big-ass map by Darlene Dark Chateau: 32 page "Moathouse" style module Castle Zagyg: Castle Ruins: 32 page folio on the castle ruins and environs, lotsa maps Castle Zagyg: Upper Works: 32 page folio, first few dungeon levels.
(etc.)
I like that imagine.
I might like it even more if it were pared down even more.
__________________ (^_^)
Anything I type is only my opinion unless explicitly stated otherwise, which should go without saying. Please assume that I've left out a smiley after every sentence. Thank you.
Imagine this: Yggsburgh: 48 page saddle-stitched city & wilderness supplement, big-ass map by Darlene Dark Chateau: 32 page "Moathouse" style module Castle Zagyg: Castle Ruins: 32 page folio on the castle ruins and environs, lotsa maps Castle Zagyg: Upper Works: 32 page folio, first few dungeon levels.
(etc.)
Imagine This:
Yggsburgh
Dark Chateau
Yggsburgh Class Options and Skills
Yggsburgh Players Maps
Yggsburgh The Outs Inn
The East Mark Gazetteer
Yggsburgh Town Hall
Yggsburgh Moat Gate
Yggsburgh The Storehouse Disctrict
Yggsburgh Eastern Corner
Castle Zagyg Upper Works
And no..... Dungeons of Castle Zagyg!
Yes, imagine paying $165.00 for a mountain of support material for a Dungeon that never materializes! Hah, that'd be a nightmare!
Oh...wait....
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
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Yggsburgh
Dark Chateau
Yggsburgh Class Options and Skills
Yggsburgh Players Maps
Yggsburgh The Outs Inn
The East Mark Gazetteer
Yggsburgh Town Hall
Yggsburgh Moat Gate
Yggsburgh The Storehouse Disctrict
Yggsburgh Eastern Corner
Castle Zagyg Upper Works
And no..... Dungeons of Castle Zagyg!
Yes, imagine paying $165.00 for a mountain of support material for a Dungeon that never materializes! Hah, that'd be a nightmare!
Oh...wait....
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMage
lol!
It is funny, and it's sad at the same time. I don't know if Gary or TLG or both are to blame for the way CZ product line was handled (i.e. the laundry list of everything BUT what people really wanted) and certainly the authors did a bang-up job, but it was handled very poorly from the word "go".
I've decided to hold off on a UW purchase, not because I'm upset at TLG, but rather it's far from complete. I'm not prepared to finish CZ off myself using TLGs version, nor am I likely to buy the new version because of whom is *not* working on it. Perhaps if Frank Mentzer was to be involved, I'd consider it, but thats about it (No fan of RJK here after the Necro and PPP fiascos)
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I think people sometimes get too fixated about what's "official" to see what they could do with the whole- "David "Zeb" Cook
I think the foot-dragging on Castle Zagyg lies at Gary's feet, and when you think about I think I understand the reason why: for 30+ years people have been building Greyhawk Castle up as "the ultimate dungeon," "Gygax's masterpiece," "the dungeon that defines the game," and so on. But that's not really what it was. In truth, Greyhawk Castle was Gary's first dungeon, created and modified on the fly as he developing the game without any of the perspective or experience he brought to his later, published, adventures (G and D series, S series, ToEE, Necropolis, etc.). Greyhawk Castle wasn't written for publication, or with any higher or more permanent goal than entertaining the members of the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association.
How many of you, especially those of you who have published professionally and established something of a reputation for yourselves, would want the very first dungeon you ever designed to be published, and especially to be hyped far and wide prior to its release as "the ultimate masterpiece, 35 years in the making"? I strongly suspect that, when Gary looked back at his maps and notes from the early 70s he was, frankly, a little embarrassed by them, and didn't think they held up nearly as well as his later works, which they would inevitably be judged against. He knew that if people saw his maps and notes, designed on the fly in 1972 and 73, the reaction would be "is that all there is?"
But, at the same time, the audience was clamoring for them, and had been doing so for close to 30 years (Gygax first announced that Greyhawk Castle was being prepared for publication (by Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) in The Dragon in 1980, and I assume that decision was made in response to fan demand), and he knew it would be a high-profile release and a big seller, meaning more royalties for him and his family. So, what he decided to do was, essentially, pull a fast one -- not release his actual vintage maps and notes, but rather strip out the most memorable and famous elements from them and plug those into a new dungeon, designed to his current design standards in light of 35 years of experience.
The downside to that is that it required him to write, essentially from scratch, a massive dungeon of, even in its appreviated version, 20+ levels, which is something he simply wasn't up to, motivationally or, after he had his stroke, physically. Gary wasn't interested in re-writing his old material, especially so much of it -- he wanted, instead, to design new stuff -- Yggsburgh, the Upper Works, and material for Lejendary Adventure. So the project floundered and little if any progress was made on it -- Gary may have prepared an outline and drawn some new maps, but I think that was about it, at least until Jeff Talanian was hired. Note that Jeff, by his own admission, never even saw Gary's original Greyhawk Castle maps -- what he was working from was a set of maps redrawn by Davis Chenault, ostensibly based on Gary's originals. Jeff may have thought he was fleshing out the original material, but it seems more likely what he was actually doing was helping draft an entirely new dungeon containing key famous elements of the original. I grumble at that decision, it's not what I wanted to see, but it is what Gary wanted and I think I understand his reasons why.
__________________ "AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously." - Gary Gygax (DMG, 1979)
"There are people who regard the RPG as something more than an amusing game, more than a most entertaining hobby. They really do need to get a life" - Gary Gygax (EN World, 2004)
I strongly suspect that, when Gary looked back at his maps and notes from the early 70s he was, frankly, a little embarrassed by them, and didn't think they held up nearly as well as his later works, which they would inevitably be judged against. He knew that if people saw his maps and notes, designed on the fly in 1972 and 73, the reaction would be "is that all there is?"
You would be wrong, he was very proud of his work. He wouldn't have engaged in this if he didn't think it would work. I knew the man personally and had discussed a lot of these issues over the last 18 years. He certainly wasn't embarrased by the castle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Foster
But, at the same time, the audience was clamoring for them, and had been doing so for close to 30 years (Gygax first announced that Greyhawk Castle was being prepared for publication (by Ernie Gygax and Rob Kuntz) in The Dragon in 1980, and I assume that decision was made in response to fan demand), and he knew it would be a high-profile release and a big seller, meaning more royalties for him and his family.
To be honest, sales were not of primary concern for Gary, more than ownership of material. He was always willing to take less of a front-rate and instead worked on getting sales cuts. This is why he never worked "for hire" much after he left TSR--ownership and creative control was more important to him. This is why most people who worked for him did so "on spec", and why you didn't see a lot of "big names" working with him on his post-TSR projects.
Gary was willing to leave D&D behind and did so, creating two new game systems. I think the desire to do Castle Greyhawk came from 2 big insights Gary had in the early part of this decade. First, he discovered via the Internet that there was a good core fan base of the 1st Edition D&D game system that still existed. Secondly, I think he was convinced that now with the OGL--ironically a concept he thought was "dumb" from the publishers standpoint and something he'd never do himself--he could legally publish his work without having to go through TSR/Wizards. He dabbled with dual-stat stuff to help with popularity. I should know--I was the guy who had to take the damn Hall of Many Panes 3.0 stats and convert them to 3.5 format. (Not a fun task, and I apologize for any conversion mistakes that came from that).
Gary was a pretty prolific writer. I think the big problem was a lot of the stuff was sketchy notes and most of it was in "his head". Two key things hurt the project--first, his own illness forced him into part-time status--before he used to work 60 hours a week on writing and writing research. Secondly, Rob Kuntz was supposed to help, but disagreements and Rob's own reliability issues forced him out of the project.
I think those two things hurt it beyond recovery. I liked Yggsburg, but I wasn't into the expansion project--I suspect it was a way to keep people interested because the Castle at the speed would take a few years before somebody could publish something of value.
Also, note that Gary's always intended to rewrite as part of the editing process before publishing. I've contributed to his projects in minor ways and almost all the time he'd edit things so stuff would get through the Gygax filter. Jeff's stuff would have been sent back to Gary for clarification. But that can't happen now.
In short, like I said before, CZ to me will be looked about by fans as the "Giant Rat of Sumatra", something who's dreamed ideal will probably be better than the reality. I actually hope Gail and the others stay focused on getting Gary's pure work published and table CZ. I can guarantee you LA will be handled well, one of Gary's trusted authors for LA, Jon Creffield is working on that stuff, and there are some good manuscripts coming that haven't seen publication in a decade.
I have to say, it'll be interesting to see what format CZ will take if it does ever hit shelves. C&C would have been an easy conversion to older editions of D&D, but LA would be a nightmare, and I don't think a core d20 version would scale well with the original.
Either way, my Yggsburgh book will be useless - without C&C there is no reason not to simply put CZ (if it ever shows up) where it belongs - with my '80 Greyhawk CS Folio.
__________________ "There are few problems a well-placed fireball cannot solve. Now, tell us more about this... orphanage?" - Balfour Grimstaff
----------
4E has rituals, use them, they're magic;
Want to see the greatest thing you will ever see? then 
You can use “Earth” as a D&D 
The Rouse 
One can appreciate both old and new D&D.
" - Gary Gygax (EN World, 2004)
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