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Demons sometimes capture white dragons from the natural world to “improve” in the forges of the Abyss. The frostforged wyrm is the result: a tortured beast, outfitted with heavy plates of cold-forged iron fixed in place with cruel nails. No matter how hard the dragon struggles to free itself, minuscule demons scramble over its back to secure the armor plates.
The dragon’s original nature is barely recognizable under the mass of spiked metal. Plumes of mist rise from its head plate, and a rime of frost accumulates around it. Such tormented creatures rarely live long—they are either killed by the demons or driven to death by their harsh masters, who see them only as expendable tools designed to spread carnage.
Spoiler:
Anyone else get a semi-Cloverfield feel of this, I could see Demons falling off this Dragon like those creatures from Cloverfield. I am thinking of adding as part of an encounter some manner of dice-throw where after a PC hits the Dragon, I roll to see if any Demons fall of and become a threat.
Last edited by Fallen Seraph; 31st October 2008 at 06:46 AM..
Hey, cool! A derivative dragon-monster that doesn't suck/lame-ify the game (like Dragonspawn do ). I imagine the best way to use such a creature is after the players have already faced (and lived to fear) a white dragon. This way, when they meet the vile forces of the Abyss and see how they've subjugated such mighty beasts, they'll know they're dealing with some real scary-bad apples.
Also, it's neat to have a sneak-peak of what Planar Dragons will look like in 4E. Most of 3E's "Planar Dragons" came from places which are now Astral Dominions, rather than unique planes, and the 4E MM refers to "Planar Dragons", not "Astral Dominion Dragons" (although I'm sure these exist, in some form).
About 65 adventure hooks popped into my head just reading this. Good show!
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Last edited by wedgeski; 31st October 2008 at 11:36 AM..
I really like this monster and its nice to see a dragon that is not a solo creature. Other than the fluff, my two favorite aspects of the dragon are its vulnerability to charm effects (nice possibilties there) and the spikes of pain ability. All in all, the mechanics synch up quite well with the fluff, creating a real portrait of pain, misery, and servitude; it almost makes me feel sorry for an evil dragon.
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I'm not really impressed. This dragon is very limiting (must be used with demons in the same encounter) and besides the breath weapon there is nothing "dragony" about it (but that is also a general 4E dragon problem).
The fluff is well meant, but having a creature where (invulnerable, nontargetable) creatures crawl on its body to fix armour is just laughable. It would be nice if there were a AC reducing effect when you kill the little demons on it as the armour gradually falls off, but I guess that is too complex for 4E.
And its ability scores are the best. Because the dragon was tortured by demons it becomes wiser and more charismatic, but looses its fear aura.....
Not as bad as the Hoard excerpt (Non of the sample hords contain enough coins to even fill one square. And that is praised as "cool feature"...) but the Draconomicon doesn't sound interesting to me (also because of its limited focus to chromatic dragons. It probably contains just more monsters, items and powers and no fluff at all). And that means something as I normally buy nearly everything with dragons in it.
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Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
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Last edited by Derren; 31st October 2008 at 07:37 PM..
The fluff is well meant, but having a creature where (invulnerable, nontargetable) creatures crawl on its body to fix armour is just laughable.
Yeah, that was my first reaction too. The first thing my players are going to do on hearing that description is think "cool, a weak spot" and try to devise a way to kill 'em.
The fluff is well meant, but having a creature where (invulnerable, nontargetable) creatures crawl on its body to fix armour is just laughable. It would be nice if there were a AC reducing effect when you kill the little demons on it as the armour gradually falls off, but I guess that is too complex for 4E.
On one hand, the DMG has rules for "stunt" attacks, but basically just has those listed as dealing damage, when something other than damage seems appropriate here.
On the other hand, "it has little demons crawling on it!" -> "So I shoot them off!" seems like a totally obvious leap of player logic that should just be in the monster writeup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by questing gm
My only question is, can it use its Spike of Pain once per encounter or each demon adjacent to it can use it once per encounter.
As written, it can use it once per encounter.
Quote:
Also, do the PCs get XP for the Frostforged Wyrm if it dies from Spike of Pain?
I'd assume yes, since Spike of Pain can do at most 7% of its HP in damage. That means the PCs still did 93% of its HP in damage.
The fluff is well meant, but having a creature where (invulnerable, nontargetable) creatures crawl on its body to fix armour is just laughable. It would be nice if there were a AC reducing effect when you kill the little demons on it as the armour gradually falls off, but I guess that is too complex for 4E.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imban
On the other hand, "it has little demons crawling on it!" -> "So I shoot them off!" seems like a totally obvious leap of player logic that should just be in the monster writeup.
I suspect that the problem is it would be too complicated because of the miniature side of the game, be it physical or virtual 3d non animated.
Last edited by xechnao; 1st November 2008 at 02:43 PM..
The fluff is well meant, but having a creature where (invulnerable, nontargetable) creatures crawl on its body to fix armour is just laughable. It would be nice if there were a AC reducing effect when you kill the little demons on it as the armour gradually falls off, but I guess that is too complex for 4E.
And its ability scores are the best. Because the dragon was tortured by demons it becomes wiser and more charismatic, but looses its fear aura.....
My intent was for the miniscule demonic caretakers to mechanically function as part of the dragon, hence the higher Wis and higher Cha. As the dragon takes damage, the maintenance crew suffers as well, and when reduced to 0, the PCs effectively take care of both the dragon and its tormentors. (A DM can easily describe the effects, preserve the flavor, and still have a viable critter for the PCs to face.) I may have had a AC drop at a certain threshold at one point, but given the speed with which a level-appropriate party should be able to tacke this non-elite, non-solo dragon, I don't think in this case it is necessary.
If you were going to upgrade this beast to an elite, I could certainly see boosting its AC by 4 as part of the upgrade, and then drop it by 2 when the PCs first bloody it.
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You're free to target the demons all you want. They have the same defenses as the dragon, and share the dragon's hit points.
Regarding a weak spot... this is a normal monster. Its weak spot is, "hit it 3 or 4 times and it dies." I could see the benefit of finding a weak spot against a solo, or even an elite, but against a normal it's just not worth the effort.
Speaking of it being a normal monster, that doesn't sit very well with me... I could see a reduction to elite because it's not in its right frame of mind, but I just don't like the idea of a true dragon being a normal monster.
Speaking of it being a normal monster, that doesn't sit very well with me... I could see a reduction to elite because it's not in its right frame of mind, but I just don't like the idea of a true dragon being a normal monster.
Yeah, I found that really weird as well. Will definitely be an elite monster in my campaigns.
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If you were going to upgrade this beast to an elite, I could certainly see boosting its AC by 4 as part of the upgrade, and then drop it by 2 when the PCs first bloody it.
I like that there's non-elite dragons, but the fluff really implies that this is an elite critter (at least).
Also, boo for this not rewarding a particular strategy! When the players shoot off the demons, they get no real effect until the critter is bloodied? And then they get the effect even if they didn't decide to target the demons? LAME.
The fluff needs to reflect the rules about the little demons a bit better. I like the whole "take damage and take an action" mechanic, and the mental score boost is subtle but effective (especially if it's in an encounter with other dragons), but it doesn't feel like several different creatures, and is described as several different creatures. Problemas.
I like that there's non-elite dragons, but the fluff really implies that this is an elite critter (at least).
Also, boo for this not rewarding a particular strategy! When the players shoot off the demons, they get no real effect until the critter is bloodied? And then they get the effect even if they didn't decide to target the demons? LAME.
The fluff needs to reflect the rules about the little demons a bit better. I like the whole "take damage and take an action" mechanic, and the mental score boost is subtle but effective (especially if it's in an encounter with other dragons), but it doesn't feel like several different creatures, and is described as several different creatures. Problemas.
Woo tough crowd. Would not want to be a stand up comedian in here today
RJS - I like the concept and am definately looking forward to getting my grubby mits on the Draconomicon. Thanks for the suggestion for the elite upgrade, I might actually use that one on my players.
Woo tough crowd. Would not want to be a stand up comedian in here today
Survival of the fittest, man. WotC is the sea, I am Permian extinction. Whatever's left when I get through with it will be so awesome it can't help but produce dinosaurs, human life, and, tangentially, space travel and nanobots.
I'm just helping WotC achieve space travel and nanobots.
It is usually super-lame when clever tactics don't get rewarded, and also quite lame when description doesn't mesh up with the effects you can have on it.
But, again, there are aspects I really like about the monster, so it's got some imperfections, but it's not full of fail. Just maybe 1/4 full.
Woo tough crowd. Would not want to be a stand up comedian in here today
RJS - I like the concept and am definately looking forward to getting my grubby mits on the Draconomicon. Thanks for the suggestion for the elite upgrade, I might actually use that one on my players.
It is usually super-lame when clever tactics don't get rewarded, and also quite lame when description doesn't mesh up with the effects you can have on it.
Except that is a dangerous road to walk down - writing an elaborate combat subsystem for a single monster seems, in my mind, a waste of time and effort and an invitation for slowing down combat and potentially penalizing groups that don't think of the exact right tactic. It also means having to address a variety of questions - can PCs target the demons all the time? Can they hit them with area effects? How many demons need to be killed? If the characters spend four actions to kill all the demons and weaken the dragon, wouldn't those four actions have been better spent killing the dragon itself?
The rules already have a solid, comprehensive framework for rewarding creative tactics - page 42. They don't attempt to define a specific list of creative actions and how they work, since that would both be a pain to create, and actively prevent other creative solutions not thought up by the designers.
Personally, I like this dragon as is, and would certainly let my PCs try stunts to damage the demons while they fight the dragon. I find its nature as a non-elite interesting but not unreasonable, given the explanation of how tortured and tormented it has been (and I would probably play up that element in the description.) I am slightly concerned by its offense level as a non-elite: between Breath Weapon, Pain Frenzy and Spikes of Pain, these guys seem to produce a lot more damage than feels appropriate, and a group of such creatures is straying into dangerous territory as far as balance goes. I do like the solution proposed of a scaling AC if it is upgraded to Elite, as a simple mechanical way to represent the demons crawling about it.
Easy to run, distinct and memorable in nature and appearance, this is the sort of creature I am very glad to see. The balance issue is my only concern, and that might be more of a hypothetical issue than one that would actually arise in gameplay.
Survival of the fittest, man. WotC is the sea, I am Permian extinction. Whatever's left when I get through with it will be so awesome it can't help but produce dinosaurs, human life, and, tangentially, space travel and nanobots.
Oof. Now that is a fine metaphor for a scathing criticism (which I agree with a lot of, BTW).
). I imagine the best way to use such a creature is after the players have already faced (and lived to fear) a white dragon. This way, when they meet the vile forces of the Abyss and see how they've subjugated such mighty beasts, they'll know they're dealing with some real scary-bad apples.
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