General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Sadly, I can't claim that one. I stole it from elsewhere (PapersAndPaychecks, maybe?).
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- I would say do not go for an "announce intent before initiative" rule. At this point I'm sold that that's one of the key "bad game design" mistakes...(In AD&D I require announcing actions only for people casting spells.)
The main argument for announcing is because of spell casters. If you don't announce prior to the roll, spell-casters have a too-clear picture of their chances of being interrupted. That is, announcing prior to the roll is a sort of check on spellcasters; they don't know if it's "safe" to cast a spell or not. I like having that uncertainty and check on spell-casting (tangentially, I think many of the additions in the AD&D initiative rules were made with the purpose of making spell casting more difficult, because at higher levels, the group with initiative tends to take out the enemy with high-level spells immediately unless there are some checks in place).
(There are other approaches, too. Personally, I use a phased combat sequence derived from Chainmail and Swords & Spells, which has its own way of providing checks on spellcasting. (Lately, I've also been using the simpler version proposed by T. Foster, but using it with the details of the full sequence in mind.)
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I would also not give hp boosts. That radically warps the game as written. And it makes accounting afterwards a pain.
Full agreement. A "kicker" warps the game, and makes it into something subtly different.
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
Thanks everyone for responding. It's cool how much individual support there is for the game. It seems like the people who play it are a little more... I don't know. It seems more like a love of the game thing than fans of the newer editions have. Less of just having fun with whatever is new, and more of a real enjoyment and love of the old system. That's how it seems to me, anyway. It's pretty awesome. I think players of the older editions are more passionate than a lot of a players dedicated to the new editions. That could be either good or bad, I suppose. But I think it's generally good.
I'm going to run B2 and depending on how it goes buy the other ones people recommended (b1, b3 and b5 seem pretty popular). I ordered X1, so hopefully it'll show up soon. Actually, I got the Basic and Expert boxed sets off of eBay. That may have been stupid, since I have Rules Cyclopedia, but I don't care. I wanted them to have them. I guess it's a collector type of thing. Also it'll be good to have multiple copies of the character creation and classes and such for my players when we start out. Right? I may get the b1-9 "In Search of Adventure" compilation on Amazon. It's expensive, but less so than if I tracked down all of the modules individually.
I'm excited to play the game again. I'm going to warn the players to, as many suggested, try to be more creative and problem solving than they are in 4e. They can't just rush into battle and be fine anymore. Healing surges don't exist.
I'm going to try and play the game by the book and not really do any house rules or anything. If things get too ridiculous I may do the unconscious at 0, dead at -10. I still like the huge death risk, though. I imagine it makes actually finding interesting solutions to problems and ways of defeating the monsters that much more rewarding.
I also feel like I should add this little detail about the adventure we played that I left out: to sneak the barkeeper out of the village and past the guards, the thief threw him hogtied over the town wall, and when he ran out to get him he found the poor guy getting mauled by seven wolves. The thief managed to scare the wolves off, though. That poor bartender...
__________________ IF IT EXISTS, NERDS WILL ARGUE ABOUT IT
I also feel like I should add this little detail about the adventure we played that I left out: to sneak the barkeeper out of the village and past the guards, the thief threw him hogtied over the town wall, and when he ran out to get him he found the poor guy getting mauled by seven wolves. The thief managed to scare the wolves off, though. That poor bartender...
Ha, that reminds me of an incident in my campaign several months ago. The party was trekking through a swamp with a cultist prisoner, but he was a bit of a liability to their travel. They ended up tying him to a log and leaving him, with plans to come back for him as they left the dungeon. Imagine their dismay when they came back only to find the prisoner missing, and only splinters and small chunks of wood remaining where something BIG had come along and found a handy snack. Oh, they hightailed it out of the swamp after that!
But I digress - glad you had a great game, and welcome to the old school fold!
__________________ You are not entitled to your opinion, you are entitled to your informed opinion. If you are not informed on the subject, then your opinion counts for nothing.
Classic D&D is my edition of choice now. It was the first version of the game that I'd ever played (though I quickly switched to AD&D 2e back then), and I lately switched back to Classic (about a year before 4e was announced). I, too, am a member of the video game generation. I never would have played D&D if I hadn't had friends first hook me on Final Fantasy and Shining Force. Prior to my first exposure to console RPGs, I was a dedicated fan of arcade, platform, and fighting games. My gaming life began and ended with Pac-Man, Mario, and Mortal Kombat. Now it spends most of its time in the Rules Cyclopedia.
CD&D is great mainly because it's complete. You can sit down and play a whole campaign with one or two slender rulebooks, the stats are always easy to read at a glance (especially monster stats, O Deus mi, what a difference!), and it's really, really easy to run a game on the fly. The rules lend themselves well to a good balance between player-driven and DM-driven campaigns, and between talky roleplaying and wargamey action.
One thing that I've discovered in my CD&D games: don't dedicate yourself to using or not using minis and a battlemat. When the players are slogging through a dungeon, and the biggest rooms they run into are 30' x 30', yes, then it kind of makes sense to ignore minis for the sake of brevity. But even well into the Rules Cyclopeda, some of those wargame conventions from Chainmail and original D&D remain, and the Classic D&D rules are very well-suited to minis (better even than 1e and 2e, IMO). It really ehances the fun of the game to play out all of the big battles just like you would with any 3e or 4e battle.
And with a dungeon like the Keep on the Borderlands's "Caves of Chaos," sometimes you can just map out one entire section and play the whole thing as if it were a single battle encounter! That makes for a really memorable dungeon crawl, believe you me.
I'm going to run B2 and depending on how it goes buy the other ones people recommended (b1, b3 and b5 seem pretty popular). I ordered X1, so hopefully it'll show up soon. Actually, I got the Basic and Expert boxed sets off of eBay. That may have been stupid, since I have Rules Cyclopedia, but I don't care. I wanted them to have them. I guess it's a collector type of thing. Also it'll be good to have multiple copies of the character creation and classes and such for my players when we start out. Right?
Which basic/expert set did you get? My favorite is the Moldvay, Cook/Marsh sets but the Mentzer set is a great read/play through for newcomers. In either case it wasn't a stupid purchase.
Even though character death is more common, the ease of creating a new one and getting back into things helps with that. It helps to not think of a character dying as "losing". You can't really lose an open game without a defined end.
.......that poor bartender. It just wasn't his day
Which basic/expert set did you get? My favorite is the Moldvay, Cook/Marsh sets but the Mentzer set is a great read/play through for newcomers. In either case it wasn't a stupid purchase.
I'm pretty sure I got the Mentzer one. It's one of the later printings with the art by Larry Elmore (I think).
__________________ IF IT EXISTS, NERDS WILL ARGUE ABOUT IT
I may get the b1-9 "In Search of Adventure" compilation on Amazon. It's expensive, but less so than if I tracked down all of the modules individually.
Caveat emptor. I never owned this, but from what I understand several of the adventures have been pretty heavily edited (B1 is missing completely except for the map, The Keep on the Borderlands is missing the keep, The Lost City is missing the lost city, Horror on the Hill is missing the hill) and those modules that are closest to being complete are generally the worst-regarded ones (green-version B3, B6, B8, B9). I'd say you're likely better off buying hardcopies of B1, B4, B5, and downloading the free pdf of the original (orange) version of B3 from the WotC website (because buying a hardcopy of that will set you back a couple hundred $).
__________________ "AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously." - Gary Gygax (DMG, 1979)
"There are people who regard the RPG as something more than an amusing game, more than a most entertaining hobby. They really do need to get a life" - Gary Gygax (EN World, 2004)
I, too, am a member of the video game generation. I never would have played D&D if I hadn't had friends first hook me on Final Fantasy and Shining Force. Prior to my first exposure to console RPGs, I was a dedicated fan of arcade, platform, and fighting games. My gaming life began and ended with Pac-Man, Mario, and Mortal Kombat. Now it spends most of its time in the Rules Cyclopedia.
I mainly got started with Starcraft and Descent back in the day. My first exposer to D&D was on TV. I remember there was an episode of Dexter's Laboratory where he and his friends are playing a game this is obviously supposed to be representative of D&D. The whole episode is about them and their adventures in the game. I remember my mind being blown, and thinking that was the coolest game I could possibly imagine. I even attempted to emulate what they were doing by making my own game with the same kind of schtick. It didn't work very well. It was years later before I realized that's what D&D. Before that I just thought it was some board game with dragons.
Also I guess my first RPG type experience was with the first Baldur's Gate. The AD&D logo at the top was one of the reasons I bought it. I wanted to play the game, but had no idea where I could buy the stuff and didn't know anyone who would want to play. That's what I thought, at least.
I digress. I apologize.
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Actually, I got the Basic and Expert boxed sets off of eBay. That may have been stupid, since I have Rules Cyclopedia, but I don't care.
No, it wasn't stupid. The RC is great to have, but it's good to have the boxed sets, too, for clarification and comparison.
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I may get the b1-9 "In Search of Adventure" compilation on Amazon. It's expensive, but less so than if I tracked down all of the modules individually.
You're better off getting the individual modules. I was disappointed with B1-9; many of the adventures are condensed (in one case you only get the map!), and some of the stuff they excised is great and worth having.
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
No, it wasn't stupid. The RC is great to have, but it's good to have the boxed sets, too, for clarification and comparison.
You're better off getting the individual modules. I was disappointed with B1-9; many of the adventures are condensed (in one case you only get the map!), and some of the stuff they excised is great and worth having.
I'll just get the individual modules. What exactly is in B1? If it is just a dungeon without monsters placed yet, what else is there?
Also one more question: what should I keep in mind if I decide to attempt to use AD&D material with my RC stuff? A while back I bought the old 1e Monster Manual and Fiend Folio. Recently I bought the 2e Monstrous Compendium. I wanted to have at least the monster manual from each of the big editions (I don't really know why). How much conversion will I need to do to use those monsters? I read the 2e are especially harder than the RC ones.
__________________ IF IT EXISTS, NERDS WILL ARGUE ABOUT IT
The main argument for announcing is because of spell casters. If you don't announce prior to the roll, spell-casters have a too-clear picture of their chances of being interrupted. That is, announcing prior to the roll is a sort of check on spellcasters; they don't know if it's "safe" to cast a spell or not. I like having that uncertainty and check on spell-casting...
Yeah, I'm certainly happy to do it just for spellcasters. (a) It's a sufficiently small amount of stuff to remember a few minutes later. (b) It gives the flavor that something dangerous is in the process of happening.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
Oh, one more observation about the RC game:
The fact that the encounters aren't premade and can just be random. A lot in my 4e and old 3e games I found that when they players were getting their butt whooped they would think along the lines of, "man, this encounter isn't balanced." It doesn't seem like that in RC. Instead they seem to just think, "crap, we're in over our heads. Too. Many. Goblins!" That feeling--one of being in a situation over your head as opposed to just an imbalance in how the encounter was put together--makes a huge difference in my opinion. It makes the game more immersive and feel more real.
I don't know if it's been this way for anyone else, but it was for us.
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I'll just get the individual modules. What exactly is in B1? If it is just a dungeon without monsters placed yet, what else is there?
Yeah, P & T beat me to it, but I also have to jump in and recommend against the B1-9 collection. The editing decisions cut out some of the most interesting flavorful parts, IMO. The later modules are frankly not that good. B1-4 are must-haves.
B1 "In Search of the Unknown" is a big dungeon complex. It's set up to get new DMs putting their toe in the water of dungeon design -- the map is there, the furnishings are there (dressing, tricks/traps), but the monsters & treasures are left in a list at the back for the DM to put wherever they wish.
As one example, the B1-9 collection cut everything from B1 -- all the descriptions, furnishings, tricks/traps, monsters, treasures -- and just left the map, saying "stock it however you want".
If you want to save time you can use my recomendations for placing the monsters & treasure (w/3E stats), attached below.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
Oh, one more observation about the RC game:
The fact that the encounters aren't premade and can just be random. A lot in my 4e and old 3e games I found that when they players were getting their butt whooped they would think along the lines of, "man, this encounter isn't balanced." It doesn't seem like that in RC. Instead they seem to just think, "crap, we're in over our heads. Too. Many. Goblins!" That feeling--one of being in a situation over your head as opposed to just an imbalance in how the encounter was put together--makes a huge difference in my opinion. It makes the game more immersive and feel more real.
That's a really interesting observation.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
I'll just get the individual modules. What exactly is in B1? If it is just a dungeon without monsters placed yet, what else is there?
B1 gives you a two-level dungeon with complete room descriptions and history. Monsters and treasure are not placed, although the module does provide a list of appropriate sample encounters and appropriate treasures for you to place, yourself. It also provides wandering monster tables, rumors/legends, and a selection of pre-made hechmen/hireling/potential PCs. There's also advice for players, advice for the DM, et cetera.
One of the strong points of B1 is the map. It's a very old school map. It's also well-designed, in the sense that there are many paths for PCs to choose from, and it's possible to explore the dungeon and *really discover* things through good play, which will provide a sense of actual accomplishment to the players. Nevertheless, there's a lot of value in B1 apart from the map; the individual module is definitely worth getting.
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Also one more question: what should I keep in mind if I decide to attempt to use AD&D material with my RC stuff?
Very little (if any) conversion is required. Personally, I like the 1e monster books much better than the 2e monster books. The 2e books provide a lot of detail and ecology and such; all that detail tends to encourage "this is how a goblin should be" attitudes, which also tend to shape player expectations. I prefer rulebooks that leave those things undefined and up to the DM. That said, the 2e monsters are also largely compatible with Classic D&D. The main considerations are that giants and dragons were beefed up. You'd be better off using Classic or 1e stats for those creatures, in most cases.
Don't overlook Monsters of Myth, which is full of great (and uncommon) monsters and ideas.
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
The fact that the encounters aren't premade and can just be random. A lot in my 4e and old 3e games I found that when they players were getting their butt whooped they would think along the lines of, "man, this encounter isn't balanced." It doesn't seem like that in RC. Instead they seem to just think, "crap, we're in over our heads. Too. Many. Goblins!" That feeling--one of being in a situation over your head as opposed to just an imbalance in how the encounter was put together--makes a huge difference in my opinion. It makes the game more immersive and feel more real. I don't know if it's been this way for anyone else, but it was for us.
You've touched on a couple of things, here, that I like in my games. One of them is the idea that the encounters aren't necessarily there for the PCs. That is, the PC shouldn't assume that the encounters are "appropriate" for them. They need to learn to judge that, and know when and how to run (there's a reason the older rules mention things like dropping food or treasure, why iron spikes are something of a tradition, and a why there are spells like hold portal).
This is closely related to the idea behind sandbox play. Since the players choose where they go, and there isn't a "right path" to follow, they're free to get in over their heads. If they want to go down to the sixth level of the dungeon while the PCs are 2nd level, they can. That sense of freedom adds to the verisimilitude of the game world, in my opinion.
Wandering monsters are another important aspect of old school play -- especially old school dungeon play. Wandering monsters offer little reward (not much XP, almost no treasure) for a lot of risk. They're an obstacle that is best avoided, if possible. They also act to discourage PCs from wasting time in the dungeon. They promote focus and efficiency; if your PCs insist on a detailed search of every square inch of the dungeon, they're going to run afoul of a lot of wandering monsters. Instead, the PCs need to figure out where to spend that extra time and effort. Wandering monsters promote "good play."
__________________ "You want to play "Semantics and Lawyers"? Go ahead. We'll be busy kickin' ass and chewing Stygian Black Lotus- the best!" - Predavolk
We didn't play it like we usually do--I encouraged my players to just do whatever they wanted. Since I had no plot or setting to ruin, I figured it wouldn't hurt. It was insane. They got in a bar fight right away.
You've got good players. There are two typical reactions to sandbox play: (1) insanity, and (2) sit and stare at the DM in silence. #1 is way more fun.
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
Suffice to say everyone died.
Good session, men. Good session. <nods>
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
We actually played our normal 4e campaign later in the day, and I have to admit, I enjoyed the RC game more.
Hook, line & sinker ...
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
Now, I'm a young dude.
And yet you are well spoken, and have clearly superior taste in RPGs. I expect great things of you.
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
though our little on-the-fly game lacked a lot of what our 4e game has (mapped out areas and regions, predefined NPCs, dungeons and adventures), it was more immersive.
And good books are more immersive than movies. The imagination has more colors, and fine detail, than any pre-painted mini.
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
1. Is Keep on the Borderlands a good way to start?
Yes, but too late; you already started. And most excellently!
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
I ordered it off Amazon the other day. My hope is to start a monthly sandbox style game. Was this a good decision, or would something else have been better?
It's certainly a good decision, but don't lose that freedom from the first session! It's a springboard, not a straight-jacket, and you should ignore any part of it that gets in the way of having a blast.
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
2. Do the PCs have no hope for life? Though one of my player's mottoes is "I LOVE DEATH," I'm worried the brutality of the game may turn off some of my players. One player in particular doesn't like to "lose." I'm worried that it seems a single goblin can kill a level one character in one hit. I'm worried they'll just run from everything, get annoyed at having to roll new characters all the time or, the worst, get downright angry and frustrated over their characters dying. Are there any ways to help with this? Or does it matter?
It's a different style of game. It's supposed to be that way. Perhaps apocryphally, EGG recommended not naming your PC until 4th level. It doesn't help them survive, but it helps you move on! They'll get used to it, but you may have to help them make necessary mental adjustments.
It is becomes a real problem though you may wish to introduce an HP kicker like some other posters, Negative HP Death & Dying rules, or something more exotic, like an Injury Table.
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
but RC is just cool in a way no other game I've played has. Maybe I just haven't played enough to discover its flaws, but it was some of the most fun gaming I've ever experienced. And it was only one short session.
That's why even though Monte Cook and Mike Mearls are smart guys, EGG was a genius. He got it right.
__________________ I don't "tell stories" when I play D&D. I adventure. Afterward, when the gold is counted and the bodies piled high, we may tell stories about how it all went down. Or not.
That said, the 2e monsters are also largely compatible with Classic D&D. The main considerations are that giants and dragons were beefed up. You'd be better off using Classic or 1e stats for those creatures, in most cases.
Seconded. And I do the same thing in 3E, too. (See link.)
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
Ive done the same. The hit point "kicker" at 1st, though I just make it a flat +10 across the board for all classes.
That's what I've done in my current Labyrinth Lord PBEM, it seems to work very well. Certainly doesn't make PCs unafraid! If anything with the added durability they seem more like real people and less like paper-bag mooks.
" - Gary Gygax (EN World, 2004)
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