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So in a discussion about whether small scale differences matter, the opinion that they don't matter is not relevant?
I will break it down into a simpler point about opinions.
10 friends are going out to eat. The choices have been narrowed down by allergies, money, etc to McDonald's and Burger king.
5 people don't care either way and are fine with either.
So they don't really matter in the overall scheme of things. They are pleased or displeased equally by any choice.
4 people don't like the menu at McDonald's, and prefer Burger King.
1 person just hates Burger King for whatever reason.
What it boils down to is the people that that actual have an opinion on where they prefer to or not to go are the ones making the decision.
This group would go to Burger King and have 90% satisfied.
If they went to McDonald's they would only have 60% satisfied.
Sure both cases have the majority satisfied, but why do something put more people off, when you could do the things that has the least "acceptable losses" as it were.
I think that some (one) around here under-estimate how large the actual mini community is, and how they view things like minis terrain, scale, etc.
If this tile set and all others are to work for all editions, then how does it accomplish this?
If the quality of the minis isn't important, then why add deco-ops to appease more people?
Where the hell are my unpainted minis at so I can paint them myself? I would prefer cheaper minis than adding cost, but adding "paint steps" that I will have to remove anyway!
So all in all scale/size does matter, no matter what the women told you.
So if you don't care, then don't worry about it. For those that do care, then let them try to discuss what and why with the people in charge without outside interference just for the sake of interfering.
Not saying you specifically, but in general.
With the time and money saved using CAD vs using hand sculpts there should not be a cost increase incurred there, and you CAN make things better to scale, without the excuse of different people working on the sculpts and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing with the minis, since the CAD software can tell you how tall something is and should allow you to scale your model if it was worth using in the first place.
Just like everyone making tiles must use the same 1 inch grid standard, how about minis finally get a standard?
I mean how would it look having the artwork on the tiles be horribly off?
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If you mean that all minis will be to 28mm scale, give or take 10%, that's something very different than meaning scale will be ignored entirely.
Like I said, make damn sure the dwarves are shorter than a taller races, not the same height. I don't expect legs of all dwarves to be X mm long, but make sure the dwarf itself is within the right range from head to toe where it or the kobold is not taller than a noticeably taller race.
I am more forgiving on bodily proportions since I expect some buff kobold to exist somewhere, or a fat one.
In the case of the Maulfighter you could clearly see it was too tall and making it shorter would in no way have offset its center of gravity or reduced any detail for the uncommon, as it barely has any to begin with; so no real problem with it being of the correct size.
Like I said beofre, get a block that a mini should fit in for best footprint (height x width compared to the base/race) and the proper height and make sure the mini fits inside it.
Appendages and weapons can hang over some, but try to make them the right height for once! Elves shorter than kobolds in the older metal minis was pretty annoying, and there is little reason for the excuses of the way things were made them, in this day and age.
I think that some (one) around here under-estimate how large the actual mini community is, and how they view things like minis terrain, scale, etc.
I think someone is overestimating the importance of traditional miniatures gamers to the prepainted collectible miniatures lines. The vast majority of customers for most collectible miniatures games are tournament players and people that are into collectibles. Most traditional mini gamers objected to things like the randomness, the type of plastic, the prepaints, the lack of having to assemble the miniatures, the simplicity of rules, and/or the sculpt quality. The only way to please a viable portion of them would be to make a traditional miniatures line with a traditional miniatures game. That's a market dominated by Games Workshop and it wasn't the target market companies like Wizkids were after. Rackham has gone after the traditional miniatures gamer with their expensive and very good quality non-random prepaints. They don't seem to be taking the miniature world by storm.
The collectible miniatures market seems to be cooling down now with the major player Wizkids being closed down by parent company Topps. The World of Warcraft collectible miniatures game will probably last a while based on license appeal alone. DDM has turned away from the tournament gamers and is aiming at roleplayers. Most roleplayers desire inexpensive miniatures, that they don't have to paint, and that look like what they are supposed to be. It remains to be seen if they will go for the still mostly random monsters, and if roleplayers will buy in large enough quantities to support the line. Increasing the cost of the miniatures to try and please the relative handful of rivet counters and dedicated modders that are acutally interested in DDM is likely to alienate a far larger portion of the customer base than it will please.
I hope you put this much effort into your Fantasy Football League!
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
I will break it down into a simpler point about opinions.
10 friends are going out to eat. The choices have been narrowed down by allergies, money, etc to McDonald's and Burger king.
5 people don't care either way and are fine with either.
So they don't really matter in the overall scheme of things. They are pleased or displeased equally by any choice.
4 people don't like the menu at McDonald's, and prefer Burger King.
1 person just hates Burger King for whatever reason.
What it boils down to is the people that that actual have an opinion on where they prefer to or not to go are the ones making the decision.
This group would go to Burger King and have 90% satisfied.
If they went to McDonald's they would only have 60% satisfied.
Sure both cases have the majority satisfied, but why do something put more people off, when you could do the things that has the least "acceptable losses" as it were.
I think that some (one) around here under-estimate how large the actual mini community is, and how they view things like minis terrain, scale, etc.
If this tile set and all others are to work for all editions, then how does it accomplish this?
If the quality of the minis isn't important, then why add deco-ops to appease more people?
Where the hell are my unpainted minis at so I can paint them myself? I would prefer cheaper minis than adding cost, but adding "paint steps" that I will have to remove anyway!
So all in all scale/size does matter, no matter what the women told you.
So if you don't care, then don't worry about it. For those that do care, then let them try to discuss what and why with the people in charge without outside interference just for the sake of interfering.
Not saying you specifically, but in general.
With the time and money saved using CAD vs using hand sculpts there should not be a cost increase incurred there, and you CAN make things better to scale, without the excuse of different people working on the sculpts and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing with the minis, since the CAD software can tell you how tall something is and should allow you to scale your model if it was worth using in the first place.
Just like everyone making tiles must use the same 1 inch grid standard, how about minis finally get a standard?
I mean how would it look having the artwork on the tiles be horribly off?
Like I said, make damn sure the dwarves are shorter than a taller races, not the same height. I don't expect legs of all dwarves to be X mm long, but make sure the dwarf itself is within the right range from head to toe where it or the kobold is not taller than a noticeably taller race.
I am more forgiving on bodily proportions since I expect some buff kobold to exist somewhere, or a fat one.
In the case of the Maulfighter you could clearly see it was too tall and making it shorter would in no way have offset its center of gravity or reduced any detail for the uncommon, as it barely has any to begin with; so no real problem with it being of the correct size.
Like I said beofre, get a block that a mini should fit in for best footprint (height x width compared to the base/race) and the proper height and make sure the mini fits inside it.
Appendages and weapons can hang over some, but try to make them the right height for once! Elves shorter than kobolds in the older metal minis was pretty annoying, and there is little reason for the excuses of the way things were made them, in this day and age.
I will break it down into a simpler point about opinions.
Go back and reread my post. I said from a marketing perspective, the "don't cares" matter a lot. If 95% of the market doesn't care, it probably isn't worth pursuing that last 5% that do care. Law of diminishing marginal returns and all that. Your additional cost will exceed your additional revenue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
So they don't really matter in the overall scheme of things. They are pleased or displeased equally by any choice.
I understood your point fully, no need to explain it again. But choosing what restaurant to go to with 9 of your friends, and making decisions about a multi-million dollar product line are not remotely the same thing. You don't make all decisions in the same way. Not if you're rational, anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
If the quality of the minis isn't important, then why add deco-ops to appease more people?
It's not that the quality doesn't matter. It's that for the great majority, quality does not matter as much as it does to you. And a higher price would drive away some customers for whom this quality doesn't matter. So they could lose some customers to gain some others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
Where the hell are my unpainted minis at so I can paint them myself? I would prefer cheaper minis than adding cost, but adding "paint steps" that I will have to remove anyway!
I'm fairly sure there are several companies still in the business of selling unpainted minis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
So all in all scale/size does matter, no matter what the women told you.
OMG! What a zinger! And so appropriate for the topic, and so unlikely to offend Eric's grandmother.
Moving on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
Like I said, make damn sure the dwarves are shorter than a taller races, not the same height.
Since adult humans can range from 5 feet tall to 7 feet or more, I don't see why all dwarves have to be the same height, and why some of them can't be taller than the shorter humans.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
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no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
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Last edited by Fifth Element; 13th November 2008 at 01:25 AM..
Rackham has gone after the traditional miniatures gamer with their expensive and very good quality non-random prepaints. They don't seem to be taking the miniature world by storm.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
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Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
So if you don't care, then don't worry about it. For those that do care, then let them try to discuss what and why with the people in charge without outside interference just for the sake of interfering.
No, because despite your protests to the contrary, fixing a 10% height difference will affect the bottom line. The minis are quite adequate, overall, and wouldn't be significantly improved by exact scaling. They would, however, have a decreased profit margin - meaning less minis, or increased price.
Quote:
Just like everyone making tiles must use the same 1 inch grid standard, how about minis finally get a standard?
I mean how would it look having the artwork on the tiles be horribly off?
You realize, I hope, the difference in difficulty between a standardized 1" grid and sculpted, variable height, 3D miniatures.
Forgive me if I offended you; I'm speaking only from my own experience with marketing executives.
That said, I'm still incredibly perplexed by this idea that Wizards is apparently trying to say something with the "All Dungeon Tiles products are compatible with all editions of Dungeons & Dragons." Guys, I get that you don't like 4e, and that you don't like Wizards, but...look, try to make your arguments rational. If Wizards is saying anything, it's not "Oh man, we messed up, 4e is so flawed!" and it's not "HAH HAH THE STATEMENT IS PURPOSEFULLY AMBIGUOUS TO INSULT YOU, OH SINGLE PERSON THAT WE DEVOTE ALL OUR TIME AND ENERGY INTO DISPLEASING." If it's saying anything, it's saying "Buy me!"
In before people perplex me even more by finding something wrong with the notion that a company wants to make money. I know, those bastards!
Who are you and what did you do with the real Professor Cirno. I find myself agreeing with just about every one of your posts lately and that frightens me.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Yes, Hmmm... Let's see that is about $37.50 for 8 minis. About $4.69 each.
I think I can get DDM Elf Spearmen from Auggies for about $0.99 each.
But Rackham's are nicer.... I would still go DDM, I think.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16 (with customized, personalized sig from Monte. Awesomesauce.), Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37 (Another Awesomesauce, the Necromancer way.)
Try to not let failure to use technical language properly get in the way of getting to the real point under discussion. - Umbran
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Lost Mines of Karak -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 6; Vondal, Dwarf Cleric 6; Karithul, Gnome Bard 6; Marshaun, Elf Druid 6
Who are you and what did you do with the real Professor Cirno. I find myself agreeing with just about every one of your posts lately and that frightens me.
I still ain't too happy with parts of 4e, but by god, if you're going to find a fault with it, find a rational one ;p. This bizarro lashing out makes everyone involved looked bad. I look bad because he might agree with something I say, you look bad because you have to deal with a loon, and he looks bad because...well, do I even need to go there?
Thinking that Wizards has some devious scheme or is plotting with some hidden agenda - in their product marketing of all things - reeks of conspiracy theory, and unless your name is Deus Ex One, Not To Be Confused With Those Bad Sequels, your conspiracy theory should not be given much thought. If your name IS that, your parents are messed up.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
...? Are you referring to me? Because I don't think I said anything really horrible there...?
No, while we don't see eye to eye on a lot of 4e, I've seen plenty of other stuff that you've said that made me unignore you.
Truth is, I'm pretty sure I just pick someone I decide is a little obnoxious and decide they must be defeated. You were like that, and actually, I'm sorry for being as much of a jackass to you as I was.
No, while we don't see eye to eye on a lot of 4e, I've seen plenty of other stuff that you've said that made me unignore you.
Truth is, I'm pretty sure I just pick someone I decide is a little obnoxious and decide they must be defeated. You were like that, and actually, I'm sorry for being as much of a jackass to you as I was.
Hey, no worries. It's not that uncommon to happen on the internet, and not really through anyone's personal fault; a good portion of what we type out will always be misunderstood. It's the nature of trying to reduce human communication - which is by and large very non-verbal - to strict text.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
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