General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
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How is it that model railroads have been able to do it right for years, but other people cannot?
Because making a precise scale model of an engine/car/building is exactly what model railroading is about. The same cannot be said about fantasy RPG miniatures, which are a bit more about just being artsy as well as finding reasonable representations of our own PCs and NPCs. They're not and never have been about precision.
__________________ Bill D
"There's a fine line between a superpower and a chronic medical condition."
- Doctor Impossible
Because making a precise scale model of an engine/car/building is exactly what model railroading is about. The same cannot be said about fantasy RPG miniatures, which are a bit more about just being artsy as well as finding reasonable representations of our own PCs and NPCs. They're not and never have been about precision.
Well, its important in model RR because if the trucks on those engines and cars are not done to the scale of your tracks, it don't work. Period.
I find that as long as the scale of the mini's are not off too much they still work just fine, in terms of doing the job that matters to me. Both in model RR and in RPG mini's. BTW, I am a HO scale model RRer.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Sorry, I should not have engaged you like that. I am certainly not a modder or mini enthusiast. D&D is my game of choice because I can play it with Heroscape and Skittles, and have an absolute blast.
So, enjoy the level of detail and technical precision that you like, and we will just avoid each others gaming tables.
I did not put down my edition of choice cause I will play or dm any edition and have a blast doing so.
RK
It isn't that you have to want precision minis, but for years many people have been looking for ONE company to make a uniform standard within its own product line.
Measuring inches out in older editions and having a mini well off the map scale makes using minis hard.
M&Ms(Skittles) work better, and a reason why actual wargames don't allow for proxy by a smaller piece, but modding must be equal to or greater the size of the original so you don't get an unfair advantage where there is no grid or squares to "lock" your pieces into for placement.
Like flanking from 3 sides and still having 3 open sides on the front with hex maps...
Plus you can eat what you kill with snack minis.
So it is fine if you don't want to worry with minis at all or mix and match minis and snacks, but for those that have helped keep minis alive throughout the video gaming years, then it is high time someone just tried to work to some scale...meaning dwarves should not be taller than humans.
Old Mage Knight minis work good for D&D as well, and were not too bad for scale on the D&D races, but the dang Clix bases are too big for the 1' grid.
I would just like to see me game of choice finally get to scale with its self.
I don't care what the scale is, but pick one you[they] can maintain.
For those wanting to talk to minis people there are plenty of sites from minipainter that Scott mentions to cool mini or not, and a few more, but I don't read Spanish and Russian.
Because making a precise scale model of an engine/car/building is exactly what model railroading is about. The same cannot be said about fantasy RPG miniatures, which are a bit more about just being artsy as well as finding reasonable representations of our own PCs and NPCs. They're not and never have been about precision.
There seems also be a difference in the ultimate purpose of these two types of models.
A railway model is supposed to look like the real thing, but on a smaller scale. It is like a 3D portrait. Relative sizes matter.
The minis on a terrain tile or generally a board game is more to establish the relative positioning of stuff. Inconsistent scales don't really matter for that purpose, since we can translate that to the real scale. What matters a little more to some is that the mini used looks similar to their character - but that doesn#t require a particular scale towards other minis, only to itself (as in "well proportioned" perhaps). And even that isn't alwas important. Sometimes a chess piece and a monopoly piece could represent a character - as long as it fits on your map and you can use it to convey the positions.
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Then why even make a miniature product line at all?
Beacuse most people just want something that looks kinda a little better than pennies and gumdrops. Scale freaks aand other terrain-wanery represents the lunatic fringe of gaming in some respect. Take a bow.
Then why even make a miniature product line at all?
This has already been answered. The minis and terrain/tiles (whatever you want to use) are there to provide approximations, not realism. It doesn't matter where in that 5 foot square my mini is after all. So, why would it really matter if my mini is a bit taller or shorter? Heck, by the D&D scale, no mini actually fits, since a square is only 5 feet high. The vast majority of minis are way off.
And I couldn't possibly care less.
Heck, I use 2d environments all the time because I play online. I got me pretty maps and tokens. Works for me.
__________________ Best line from current campaign:
The pirates assembled on your deck are wearing an assortment of fishnet stockings, high heels and fashionable earrings. They brandish dim and dented cutlasses.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
A picture of a pipe is not a pipe. A picture of a tree, is not a tree.
A scale model of a tree isn't a tree either.
Plant your scale models tree in your front lawn and smoke your scale model pipe.
Model terrain, which modellers refer to as simply "terrain", doesn't mean that it is actual terrain.
It's ok that one group has shortformed it to terrain. Another group refering to something else that is an abstract representation of the terrain the characters are "in" is wrong, because another group has a different defiition ... even if that groups definition was ALSO wrong, instead referring to another abstract representation of the terrain.
EDIT:
D&D doesn't care if the Dwarf is shorter than the half-elf is shorter than the human is shorter than the dragonborn.
They are all medium. All medium characters have the same size BASE.
All small creatures have the same size BASE. Same with large, etc, etc, etc.
The point is base determines how many squares you fill. The figure ON the base represents what the character it looks like. Since the rules handle things without needing to actually measure out line of sight on scaled terrain with scaled minis [to match PC characters which would require TONS of different figures to have the right weapon in the hands of the character with the right height/weight of the character]. It cares about whether or not a character is in any given 5'x5' cube ... even if they are taller they aren't in the higher cube.
The rules for D&D abstract things out so you don't need to have absolutely correct scaling for minis and such. Thus they rather make the minis LOOK GOOD than waste time making them absolutely accurate to an exact scale.
Last edited by WalterKovacs; 12th November 2008 at 12:16 AM..
Beacuse most people just want something that looks kinda a little better than pennies and gumdrops. Scale freaks aand other terrain-wanery represents the lunatic fringe of gaming in some respect. Take a bow.
Then use/make tokens. They are cheaper to make, and you can fit more in a pack for less to the consumer.
D&D 4e is not for everyone. Regardless of the D&D edition you play, if you are still playing, you are playing D&D. It says so right on the book.
With my quote in mind and responding to the OPs query, the statement on the tile pack is in no way an acknowledgment of the the fact the 4e is not for everyone but we are also not so naive as to think that the only people who buy these things play 4e. They are an RPG accessory for games that use 1 inch grid (or games that don't if you can look past the lines and hash marks) and the statement is meant to acknowledge that.
So.....4E is not for everyone, but you don't (or rather, the tiles set doesn't) acknowledge that 4E is not for everyone.
Then use/make tokens. They are cheaper to make, and you can fit more in a pack for less to the consumer.
Yes, I think you're right. People who like prepainted minis that are only approximately to scale are just wrong. How can they be so wrong and not realize it?
You tell 'em, brother.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
I mean should a kobold be put on a large DDM base? Why not, who cares right!
I think more people would agree with you if you'd stop being so obtuse. Small DDM minis have the same size bases. Mediums have the same size, etc. We're talking about small differences in scale that do not affect their use in the game one iota.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
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