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Old 19th November 2008, 05:46 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Why 4th won't last...

Okay, it would seem to me that about 50% of the gaming community is unhappy with 4th Edition.
This is bad. If 50% of a gaming group doesn't show up to play, the campaign is probably over.
4th Edition has sold well (my friends and I all bought the gift set), however profit margins for the
initial release were obviously following a video game console's business model.
That is to sell the platform for nothing, and make profits off of further releases.
My group purchased 4 boxed sets but will no longer support the game due to poor mechanics.

We just couldn't make it work. Customized soundtracks, liberal handouts, and deep storytelling
did little to overcome the tedious, miniature-based combat system 4th edition was founded on.
Oh, we tried. My oh my how we tried! House rules worked initially, but slowed the game down
due to the weight of having to convert virtually everything. Some of the changes 4th offered were good,
but overall we were too bogged down.

Set up takes forever when every encounter is dependent on complex tile by tile layout.
We found our suspension of disbelief constantly assaulted by nit picky character resources.
Healing surges and milestones felt too forced when we attempted to create a gritty atmosphere.
Combat in 3rd Edition got unruly at high levels, but 4th Edition is tedious right out of the gate.
Some players actually fell asleep during a fight!

This feeling of disappointment is new to us, in terms of D&D. Most of us started playing
in the early 90's and we freely combined elements of 1st and 2nd Editions. Occasionally,
we would play other systems as well. Nevertheless, we were always up for something new.
When time would permit, my friends and I NEVER failed to have a heck of a time. None of us were
outcasts, yet we constantly found reasons to bail on social gatherings to make our weekly game.

As we got older, 3rd Edition was released. Though not perfect, the welcome changes revitalized our youth.
Character and customization was taken to the extreme. 3rd parties reveled in a Golden Age,
and we were all the more merry because of it. Times were good. Sure, combat got a little
wonky at high levels and the XP system made no sense, but this could be overlooked.
Eventually we all moved on to MMO's out of convenience. In the backs of our heads, PnP,
would once again find its way into our hearts when the new edition was unveiled.

Much to our horror, this was not the case. Our favorite pastime had been replaced with sloppy,
ill-conceived MMO rules. Well, let me tell ya friends, MMO's have a long way to go in their own right.
I'm sure future generations of this genre will be closer to what Gygax created for the table top,
but at this time it's not even close. We only play em 'cause we can, not because they're good.
PnP was a safe haven from this, so why did the developers burn it down?

A responsibility existed to create something that would endure. Money and Trademarks are powerful tools.
These tools were misused. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for farting in the faces of those who made your jobs possible.
I know you didn't set out to make a bad game. I know you tried.

But I don't care, because your intentions were foul. $th Edition sprang from a business model,
not the other way around. Don't treat us like idiots. The enforced miniatures, online components,
and unfinished core content are telling signs that can't be argued. However,
through all the poor scheming, you forgot the most important business component of all.
You forgot to make a majority of your players happy.

I only hope the heads of Wizards learn from their mistakes or get replaced.

I'm compassionate enough to feel sad when people lose their jobs, but too much is at stake here.
Too many hopes and dreams are being shattered each day when people play this unsettling
facsimile of the precious gem that was Dungeons & Dragons.
Video game mechanics work better in video games. I see no reason for a newcomer to replace their digital entertainment
for an analog version.

WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU OFFERING US?

I'm not intentionally being a troll, but I had to speak out. My heart has been broken.

Thanks WotC

For those of you who enjoy this hardcore miniature business with lite RP, I hope you're enjoying yourselves.
I predict your ship will sail before you know it...

Last edited by LeStryfe79; 19th November 2008 at 05:59 PM..
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LeStryfe79 View Post

For those of you who enjoy this hardcore miniature business with lite RP, I hope you're enjoying yourselves.
I predict your ship will sail before you know it...

Laughable
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Ballsy post around here, heh. You must like to start trouble!
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:56 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I predict this will end in flames.

Also, I agree with Gundark.
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Too many hopes and dreams are being shattered each day when people play this unsettling facsimile of the precious gem that was Dungeons & Dragons.
Roleplaying, serious buisiness!
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ballsy post around here, heh. You must like to start trouble!
A poster who likes to start trouble. There's a name for that isn't there?
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I only hope the heads of Wizards learn from their mistakes or get replaced.

I'm compassionate enough to feel sad when people lose their jobs, but too much is at stake here.
This part is especially good.

"My hobby is more important than someone's livelihood."
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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A poster who likes to start trouble. There's a name for that isn't there?

yes, you can smell those from far away
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Okay, it would seem to me that about 50% of the gaming community is unhappy with 4th Edition. This is bad. If 50% of a gaming group doesn't show up to play, the campaign is probably over.
Quibble: A bunch of different polls have been consistent in coming up with about 40% disliking 4E.
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm not intentionally being a troll..
Whatever, dude...
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
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So, anyway, more seriously, I get what I think you're saying - that 4E doesn't do it for you like the older editions. No big deal! Just play them instead and cull from the new stuff whatever you want. That's what I do. I'm still happy that 4E has been released. I have bought all the new adventures and love using the maps and storylines for my old edition campaigns.

Check out dragonsfoot, thedelversdungeon or knight-n-knaves for whole communities of people who will be totally sympathetic to your thoughts and feelings.
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
]Okay, it would seem to me that about 50% of the gaming community is unhappy with 4th Edition.
Did you just make up this number out of thin air? From what I've read in designer's blogs hear during podcasts, the game is doing quite well. I think you are projecting your own issues with the game onto the entire gaming community.

Quote:
Set up takes forever when every encounter is dependent on complex tile by tile layout.
I've run Keep on the Shadowfell for three different groups. While running those games I never had an issue with setting up tile layouts or miniatures. It never took more than a couple of seconds. In fact it is easier and faster than it was in 3E, because the scenes are given a close up image to view, with the exact locations of the monsters. This wasn't something that showed up with 3E until very late in the game's life.

Quote:
Our favorite pastime had been replaced with sloppy,
ill-conceived MMO rules.
I still don't get this need to compare the game to an MMO. I've played MMOs, I play MMOs, and D&D 4E doesn't feel like an MMO at all.

I am always slack-jawed when I see or hear someone say that 4E isn't close to Gygax's game. Well, the only game that is close to Gygax's original game... is Gygax's original game. As far as feel or tone, 4E's encounter based theme is more in tune with the kind of dungeons that Gygax developed in his basement. He often designed "rooms" in terms of "encounters". 4E does this extremely well and it allows for players to press on rather than rest so often between these encounters.

Quote:
A responsibilty existed to create something that would endure. Money and Trademarks are powerful tools.

These tools were misused. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for farting in the faces of those who made your jobs possible.
I know you didn't set out to make a bad game. I know you tried.
From this point your arguments become inane and childish. I don't think I'll bother to refute them further.
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quibble: A bunch of different polls have been consistent in coming up with about 40% disliking 4E.
Nitpick: Insert comments about reliability of self-selecting internet polls.
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:06 PM   #14 (permalink)
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After reading the initial post I am strongly reminded of "My hat of d02 know no limit."
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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(1) Weird line breaks made that tough to read.

(2) "My group doesn't like 4e" <> "Not enough people like 4e for it to be economically viable."

(3) "Too many hopes and dreams are being shattered each day when people play this unsettling facsimile of the precious gem that was Dungeons & Dragons." ... seriously? Isn't that a bit dramatic? Aren't we a few months past the "WoTC stealed my childhod w $e" posts?

-O
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Why this thread won't last...

because it is essentially an edition wars troll. I'm sorry you're dissatisfied, but we can't have this thread.

Clunk.
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Old 19th November 2008, 06:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Weird, we're playing 4th edition (in two different campaigns!) and it's just as much fun as 3rd with faster, more exciting combat. I wonder where we differ?

EDIT: in... after?.. the lock!
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Old 19th November 2008, 09:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Okay, it would seem to me that about 50% of the gaming community is unhappy with 4th Edition.
Where did you get this statistic?
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Old 19th November 2008, 10:09 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Where did you get this statistic?

Um, boss, the thread's locked. He can't answer the question.
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Old 19th November 2008, 10:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Um, boss, the thread's locked. He can't answer the question.
I think the question and answer were both rectorical.
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