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Also if Wizards doesn't want to make stats and adventures for Evil PCs then that's what the GSL is for. Some brave 3P company will totally make stats for your Paladin of Bane and his buddies to Kill Kord and take his stuff.
Actually, we're not allowed to. The SRD doesn't contain the pantheon or the terms associated with the new diety-killing rules. We can only really write our own gods and unique ways of killing them that do not resemble the Discorporation System (oh look, I gave it a name). If someone at Wizards could update us all on exactly what is going to happen with the GSL, that would be great. For now, we are in the dark.
But you bring up a good point! Wizards is not the only one producing material, which brings me to...
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Originally Posted by justanobody
If a group doesn't want to fight Pelor, they don't have to, but what of those who may have a need for their story completion?
Removing the ability to create story elements because of a lack os insight to think someone may want to use something you have built into the foundation of the game as a plot point only furthers the positions that state 4th edition is mostly just a miniature wargame with RPG elements thrown in.
That's absurd. They have in no way contructed a game that disallows evil play. It is not highly supported for reasons stated previously (and later in this post), but it is certainly possibly. They give suggestions in the core rulebooks as to how this can be done, and it will undoubtedly be explored by 3rd Party Publishers as well, as this is something we can do.
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So it is a popularity contest and not all gamers rights are equal to decide how they may want to create their stories?
I don't think that is right at all and goes with the previous poster saying that WotC in some way seems to be imposing their playstyle and story choices on other players, by not throwing together the other gods so you do have something to do with your level 30 character other than retire him or upgrade those level 25 monsters and play with them again until the end of your story.
It just makes the potential of the game a bit lacking to offer only one side of the cosmology as a probable or likely opponent.
Wizards of the Coast is a company. Like any other RPG company, including third party publishers, they must release products that appeal to a majority of players. This ensures that they make money, and continue to release more products (I know, this is blasphemous, but stick with me here). While many players do like to explore the dichotomy of good and evil, most make characters that fight evil. They are not stopping you from running the games of your choice. They are not enforcing anything on you. Many people miss this, but they've provided a nice section in the DMG that will teach you to make your own creatures should you want your players to fight a different kind of villain (god, they should just call it a Toolkit so that more people will take notice).
They are a business, and they are releasing products which appeal to the majority of gamers. And judging by the turnout of this post, they've done that. And as for the amount of energy they're putting into making sure you're only killing evil gods, I'll quote the following, for epic truth...
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Originally Posted by Fifth Element
Wow. So far gods and god-killing have taken up one page in only one of the 4E books (by my count). So your argument that "god slaying is probably a pretty small fraction of the D&D playerbase" is so far reflected very well in the 4E books, considering that one single page has thus far been dedicated to it.
I think your argument is lacking in perspective.
I would also like to point out that in this supplement, there are a good handful of post-30 epic threats to be found, more of which I'm sure we'll see in future supplements. I'll close by politely imploring you not to turn my nice, happy, game-related thread into a new edition war like the ones you've frequented so very fervently before.
Dude. I have no problem with epic quests to get rid of a god, in any setting. I'm just saying Tiamat =/= Takhisis.
Riiiiigghhhhht . . . So the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons of Krynn is not the same basic character as the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons for the rest of D&D . . . .
The Takhisis of Dragonlance is quite clearly good 'ol Tiamat given a bit of a powerup . . . although Tiamat has caught up in FR and core D&D. Next your going to tell me Paladine =/= Bahamut . . .
__________________ Brian Zuber
Proud Member of ENWorld since 2000 (under several lost screen names). Gaming since the mid-80s!
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Several deities are already level 35, so why not have more than just Tiamat and Orcus for higher level play?
If the game is supposed to cap at 30 levels, this makes my noggin' itch.
I wonder if there'll be a supplement dealing with characters that go beyond 30 levels?
Wizards of the Coast is a company. Like any other RPG company, including third party publishers, they must release products that appeal to a majority of players.
Yes, heaven forbid they actually complete anything they start and now that their exists one god with stats in the form of Tiamat, as well Orcus...they probably have no need to offer those simple gods that the PCs have an option to worship steal powers from.
Like someone else said that their paladin might just want to dethrone Pelor and take his seat in the universe.
But it is OK to not have at least the core complete because everything is core now!
And only Evil deities would even fight, so evil PCs can fight evil deities and good little boys and girls and PCs and players should not want to fight good deities.
Heaven forbid, again, that some plane of existence comes into the game that stresses the balance the game wants to have but it so unbalanced that it cannot stat out good deities for PCs to fight for some reason should they want to; and that plane of existence we shall call Nirvana and it will be run by MODRONS!
Finishing the core product like giving stats for the included deities since most players will own a PHB and may have interest in opposing one of the deities for some reason makes a bit more sense to appealing to a larger audience, than creating a new deity in the game and giving it stats first.
Sounds like EverQuest and never fixing any previous expansion prior to releasing the next one so all the problems compound and then it is too late to fix anything because it is too late to backtrack as it would require rewriting the most recent expansions...... Did those Kunark quests ever finally get fixed?
Deities exist that many people have access to, so complete them first before making up something else.
I would work on what is already started first because it would be quicker to get done, that just making something new, I mean don't the deities for paladins already offer then a range of powers, so the stats for those deities have some stuff already that they specialize in for combat effectiveness and flavor.
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Originally Posted by Dire Bare
Riiiiigghhhhht . . . So the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons of Krynn is not the same basic character as the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons for the rest of D&D . . . .
The Takhisis of Dragonlance is quite clearly good 'ol Tiamat given a bit of a powerup . . . although Tiamat has caught up in FR and core D&D. Next your going to tell me Paladine =/= Bahamut . . .
And Dragonbron and the bastard offspring of Draconians.
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Originally Posted by Tiny Little Raven
If the game is supposed to cap at 30 levels, this makes my noggin' itch.
I wonder if there'll be a supplement dealing with characters that go beyond 30 levels?
I am still trying to wrap my head around that one.
What do you do at level 30 after the epic destinies IF you want to keep playing?
NARFLE THE GARTHOK! Fight the gods!
Last edited by justanobody; 21st November 2008 at 03:16 AM..
If the game is supposed to cap at 30 levels, this makes my noggin' itch.
I wonder if there'll be a supplement dealing with characters that go beyond 30 levels?
Game caps at 30, but don't forget that PCs can also survive a fight with monsters a number of levels above their own.
Don't remind everyone about that arbitrary plot point which came out of nowhere. It's embarrassing.
Your mileage and all that.
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DLA had the stats for the gods just like any other 1e supplement, and presumably the DM could use them to cap a world shattering campaign
Actually, DLA didn't have their stats. It had enormous class levels pulled out of nowhere and hit points, but it wasn't Deities and Demigods or Forgotten Realms Adventures (or even Tiamat and Bahamut a la MM). Those were included just to have people go "whoa, they're unbelievably powerful and we have no chance!" Tracy and Margaret have never been fans of giving stats for the gods.
But, all of that aside, I agree that having powerful statistics for a level 35 chromatic dragon does give you one option for an aspect of Takhisis. All I'm trying to say is that I don't want people to think those ARE the statistics of Takhisis. Make sense?
Riiiiigghhhhht . . . So the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons of Krynn is not the same basic character as the five-dragon-headed queen of evil chromatic dragons for the rest of D&D . . . .
Not since they parted ways early on, and one went off to become the greater goddess and head of the pantheon of evil while the other hung out as the evil goddess of chromatic dragons.
Everybody sees the relationship between the two, but come on. There's 25 years (come next year!) of mileage on Takhisis now, and she's acquired a whole slew of other traits in that time.
I must say though that it does appear 4E is taking a heck of a lot of elements of Dragonlance and working it into its core, just as it's taking a heck of a lot of Eberron and so forth. That makes things easier for DL gamers.
Yes, heaven forbid they actually complete anything they start and now that their exists one god with stats in the form of Tiamat, as well Orcus...they probably have no need to offer those simple gods that the PCs have an option to worship steal powers from.
Like someone else said that their paladin might just want to dethrone Pelor and take his seat in the universe.
But it is OK to not have at least the core complete because everything is core now!
And only Evil deities would even fight, so evil PCs can fight evil deities and good little boys and girls and PCs and players should not want to fight good deities.
Heaven forbid, again, that some plane of existence comes into the game that stresses the balance the game wants to have but it so unbalanced that it cannot stat out good deities for PCs to fight for some reason should they want to; and that plane of existence we shall call Nirvana and it will be run by MODRONS!
Finishing the core product like giving stats for the included deities since most players will own a PHB and may have interest in opposing one of the deities for some reason makes a bit more sense to appealing to a larger audience, than creating a new deity in the game and giving it stats first.
Sounds like EverQuest and never fixing any previous expansion prior to releasing the next one so all the problems compound and then it is too late to fix anything because it is too late to backtrack as it would require rewriting the most recent expansions...... Did those Kunark quests ever finally get fixed?
Deities exist that many people have access to, so complete them first before making up something else.
I would work on what is already started first because it would be quicker to get done, that just making something new, I mean don't the deities for paladins already offer then a range of powers, so the stats for those deities have some stuff already that they specialize in for combat effectiveness and flavor.
Okay, so after ignore your nonsensical EverQuest example, I'm going to question you about why you believe WotC should publish material for every isolated interest in the community.
Shemeska pointed out how few people might be interested in deicide in D&D: a fraction, and potentially a small one. We also know that the number of players who prefer to be "goodie-goodie stompin'" evil characters is a fraction of the community, also possibly a very small one. So, justanobody, during this global economic crisis, you're demanding that WotC pay someone to write and publish material that a small fraction of a small fraction of their consumer base will actually be willing to use? Seriously? That doesn't make sense.
But, all of that aside, I agree that having powerful statistics for a level 35 chromatic dragon does give you one option for an aspect of Takhisis. All I'm trying to say is that I don't want people to think those ARE the statistics of Takhisis. Make sense?
Actually I don't understand. Largely if you are fighting Takhisis at level 30, you have the epic destinies of archmage, eternal seeker, demigod, etc. you have already stepped outside of the realm of the normal dragonlance play experience. You essentially have a party of Raistlins, Humas and Kingpriests and would be the mightiest mortals ever to exist on the face of Krynn.
Sure Takhisis has the dark temptress for seducing mortals to her bidding and the Dark Warrior to command her forces. However if she is going to fight personally, it is the Chromatic Dragon form which she will use. It is the one that is the most interesting and iconic for a D&D combat.
So those statistics are going to be as close an approximation of Takhisis' stats as you can expect, given that you can't make her any stronger or even the highest level PC's couldn't prevail. The stats for Tiamat will serve as Takhisis' stats in the only place they matter... in a fight.
Okay, so after ignore your ridiculous and nonsensical EverQuest example, I'm going to question you about why you believe WotC should publish material for every isolated interest in the community.
Did you not understand the EQ reference and its relationship to the current idea?
How many gods are in the PHB? Would that really be too much to ask to have those with stats, in case.
That would give core players something to do with their epic destinies and level 30 that is in the book other than fight Orcus a couple of times. How many times can you kill one deity anyway?
What point is there to invade other planes if you are going there to raise hell and think that the one in charge might not just get pissed about it and take it personal and come for you?
I don't think the PHB deities are really too much to ask for.
Forgotten Realms seems to have a few less deities now.....nobody knows what is going on with Eberron.
So how are the deities in the PHB somehow some corner cases when they are the defaults?
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Are you a Communist, justanobody?
No I am a Marxist.
Well, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard! ~Honk Honk~
Last edited by justanobody; 21st November 2008 at 04:12 AM..
Okay, so after ignore your ridiculous and nonsensical EverQuest example, I'm going to question you about why you believe WotC should publish material for every isolated interest in the community.
Your buddy (/fellow threadcrapper ) Shemeska pointed out how few people might be interested in deicide in D&D: a fraction, and potentially a small one. We also know that the number of players who prefer to be "goodie-goodie stompin'" evil characters is a fraction of the community, also possibly a very small one. So, justanobody, during this global economic crisis, you're demanding that WotC pay someone to write and publish material that a small fraction of a small fraction of their consumer base will actually be willing to use? Seriously? I can only assume that you must completely lack any understand of market economics or business sense. Are you a Communist, justanobody?
*sigh* Where's that idiot Joseph McCarthy when you finally need him?
Ugh, watch out, the mods don't like this tone in any thread reply, so you should better reword it.
How many gods are in the PHB? Would that really be too much to ask to have those with stats, in case.
In case of what? You roll a random encounter and, OOPS! It's Pelor!
Really, if you're facing Pelor, there had better well have been a freaking campaign leading up to it. He's not showing up randomly. Odds are, you've had an adolescent power-fantasy evil campaign leading up to it, and you've had plenty of time to make stuff.
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That would give core players something to do with their epic destinies and level 30 that is in the book other than fight Orcus a couple of times. How many times can you kill one deity anyway?
What point is there to invade other planes if you are going there to raise hell and think that the one in charge might not just get pissed about it and take it personal and come for you?
I don't know where to start. OK, you're running a presumably evil campaign where the PCs just sit up one day and say, "Heck, let's go out and invade Pelor's home plane!" So, they start raping and pillaging the angelic hosts, and eventually Pelor shows up. They do this all spur of the moment, so the DM of course has no time to prepare, and of course there was nothing leading up to it.
So, thought experiment: Let's say this is 3e and you don't have whatever book has stats for Pelor. What would the DM do, then? Why could he not do the same in 4e?
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I don't think the PHB deities are really too much to ask for.
The designers do. You just heard from one. I, personally, will never need stats for Pelor. If your campaign is one of the four that needs stats for Pelor, I suppose your DM will just have to do what DMs have been doing for 30 years, and make something up.
Did you not understand the EQ reference and its relationship to the current idea?
I understand that you're talking about how EQ was broken and not updated, and I understand that you're trying to use that as a explanation why WotC should publish material that hardly anyone will ever use.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
How many gods are in the PHB? Would that really be too much to ask to have those with stats, in case.
...
I don't think the PHB deities are really too much to ask for.
...
So how are the deities in the PHB somehow some corner cases when they are the defaults?
I consider them corner cases not because they aren't popular, but because they aren't popular as foes.
I'll grant you that if they stat up any Good or Lawful Good deities, it should be the ones from the Player's Handbook first.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
Forgotten Realms seems to have a few less deities now.....nobody knows what is going on with Eberron.
FR could've use a few less deities. In Eberron, OTOH, things fit neatly together. I really hope they don't dump any of them.
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Originally Posted by DandD
Ugh, watch out, the mods don't like this tone in any thread reply, so you should better reword it.
You're probably right, DandD. I'll apologize and do just that. (It's just that this guy frustrates me so much sometimes! )
justanobody: I'm sorry I called you a Communist, and wished for you to be blacklisted. It wasn't friendly of me, and I shouldn't have said it. I hope you can forgive me.
Like I said above, it's just that you frustrate me so much sometimes! You waltz into a forum and complain about anything and everything you can regarding 4E. Often you use irrelevant statements and even outright misinformation to "make" your points. Frankly, it's really irritating to see someone come and make stuff up while the rest of us are trying to have a positive conversation about 4E. If you're so unhappy with 4E, why don't you just stop coming here and talking about it? I really wish that you'd stop it, justanobody; we're entitled to the right to enjoy whatever we want to, and we enjoy 4E.
There isn't enough asbestos and retardant foam in the world for what I think of the rest of your post.
I can't see where I personally attacked you. Could you point that part out to me?
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No. I would be planning just to plop out level 30 characters to just face Pelor for a one-shot.
It goes without saying that a level 30 character has probably been through a whole campaign, so what is your point?
My point is that the DM has more than enough time to create stats for Pelor if there's a strange, corner-case campaign leading up to fighting him. What's more, 4e has provided the DM with basic guidelines for creature creation and at least one example of a similar challenge.
There isn't enough asbestos and retardant foam in the world for what I think of the rest of your post.
I can't see where I personally attacked you. Could you point that part out to me?
You have the order backwards.
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My point is that the DM has more than enough time to create stats for Pelor if there's a strange, corner-case campaign leading up to fighting him. What's more, 4e has provided the DM with basic guidelines for creature creation and at least one example of a similar challenge.
-O
I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.
See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.
Note 1: You don't know how much time a DM has.
Note 2: If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.
@MerricB:
Got your PDF copies handy and can do a quick count of level 30 appropriate monsters without upgrading lower levels for a party to fight? TIA.
I made sure to remove the off-hand flame I aimed at you, Shemeska. It was angry, out of line, and inappropriate, and I want to apologize to you, as well. It wasn't cool of me.
I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.
See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.
So, it comes down to you wanting a giant NPC deathmatch featuring deities?
NPC versus NPC does not show you exactly what is possible with the system. It shows you very little about the system, in fact.
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If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.
Creating an entire game system requires way more time, effort, and talent than just creating the stat block for a deity. Suggesting that anyone who has the time to write up stats equally one-half of a page has the time to design, develop, playtest, and write a game that is hundreds of pages is beyond ridiculous, it's downright disconnecting from reality.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
I made sure to remove the off-hand flame I aimed at you, Shemeska. It was angry, out of line, and inappropriate, and I want to apologize to you, as well. It wasn't cool of me.
Apology accepted. No hard feelings.
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
steal powers from.
) Shemeska pointed out how few people might be interested in deicide in D&D: a fraction, and potentially a small one. We also know that the number of players who prefer to be "goodie-goodie stompin'" evil characters is a fraction of the community, also possibly a very small one. So, justanobody, during this global economic crisis, you're demanding that WotC pay someone to write and publish material that a small fraction of a small fraction of their consumer base will actually be willing to use? Seriously? I can only assume that you must completely lack any understand of market economics or business sense. Are you a Communist, justanobody?
)
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