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Creating an entire game system requires way more time, effort, and talent than just creating the stat block for a deity. Suggesting that anyone who has the time to write up stats equally one-half of a page has the time to design, develop, playtest, and write a game that is hundreds of pages is beyond ridiculous, it's downright disconnecting from reality.
So, it comes down to you wanting a giant NPC deathmatch featuring deities?
NPC versus NPC does not show you exactly what is possible with the system. It shows you very little about the system, in fact.
Then throw the 4e Iconics being made around here at Orcus and Tiamat when they are done and compare the results of 10 battles each and see if they are close enough to base a comparison off of just those two deities to create the others.
...and tell me what's on your mind. You may need to register first. Flame on, man.
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I guess as a proof to see exactly what is possible someone needs to try something crazy with 4th and face off Tiamat against Orcus.
See how the deities stand toe-to-toe, to see if the there is enough information to say a DM can create a working representation of a deitie out of Pelor, should they be forced to.
I explained above, that's the Zen of 4e. Monster (and, by extension, deity) stats exist relative to the PCs, and say nothing about the creatures facing each other. You can love or hate this philosophy, but that's kind of outside the point. 4e stats don't work well when you have two creatures or gods duking it out.
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Note 1: You don't know how much time a DM has.
Note 2: If a DM has enough time to create a deity, then he has enough time to create his own game and not need ANYTHING from a company that cannot provide the stats for the deities listed in the PHB that has the first occurrence of deities within the game they publish.
Some DMs are, indeed, limited in time. Those DMs are advised to take advantage of things that other people - like WotC designers - have statted out for them.
And you're dramatically overstating if statting up a god takes as much time as making a new system.
Let me say this. I don't like 4E. The game just doesn't appeal to me and didn't buy it for that reason. But 4E's treatment of epic-level play (from what I have seen/read of it) is the one area I feel it handles vastly better than 3E. Not extending the level progression indefinitely and planning for good campaign-endings, while giving people epic destinies and powers are very positive developments. The fact that major quests are now officially needed to kill gods, rather than just being able to jump them and destroy them is also a great improvement.
Let me say this. I don't like 4E. The game just doesn't appeal to me and didn't buy it for that reason. But 4E's treatment of epic-level play (from what I have seen/read of it) is the one area I feel it handles vastly better than 3E. Not extending the level progression indefinitely and planning for good campaign-endings, while giving people epic destinies and powers are very positive developments. The fact that major quests are now officially needed to kill gods, rather than just being able to jump them and destroy them is also a great improvement.
Quoted for example-of-what-this-thread-was-before-flame-war.
Discuss game mechanics in a friendly way or GTFO. That's what this thread is for. It's those who come here to tear down what others find fun and enjoyable who are the reason there's such huge division and anger in the RPG community. To move conversation onto a topic that doesn't include flaming eachother...
What are your hopes for future gods to be released? How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)? How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?
What are your hopes for future gods to be released?
All from the PHB at least.
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How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)?
If ever I get high enough level, I plan to use her in various recipes when I retire the character to his own tavern.
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How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?
Discuss.
Well Tiamat adds a second deity to the combatant list. Something more than Orcus to face in combat, as I fear level 30+ skill challenges would not be comprehensible outside of the game for the players.
I would also like to point out that in this supplement, there are a good handful of post-30 epic threats to be found, more of which I'm sure we'll see in future supplements. I'll close by politely imploring you not to turn my nice, happy, game-related thread into a new edition war like the ones you've frequented so very fervently before.
Pardon?
God-killing and epic-level monsters are not the same thing. The poster I was responding to claimed that WotC was forcing their playstyle down our throats, which I thought was a ridiculous claim since the god-killing game information took up a single page in one 4E book.
And remember, all editions of D&D are awesome. Say it with me.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
Well Tiamat adds a second deity to the combatant list. Something more than Orcus to face in combat, as I fear level 30+ skill challenges would not be comprehensible outside of the game for the players.
Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?
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355 hours played
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Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Actually, we're not allowed to. The SRD doesn't contain the pantheon or the terms associated with the new diety-killing rules. We can only really write our own gods and unique ways of killing them that do not resemble the Discorporation System (oh look, I gave it a name). If someone at Wizards could update us all on exactly what is going to happen with the GSL, that would be great. For now, we are in the dark.
Man, I have no idea what WotC is doing with the GSL. You guys took a leap of faith, and now they're letting you twist in the wind.
Come on, Wizards! Let the 3rd parties in on what you're planning, and give them more freedom with products! It's frankly disgusting how opaque you've been about this whole thing.
A book of statted deities (renamed, I suppose, like in the APG, although it'd be nice if they could use the actual names without fear of reprisal) would be a great product for a 3PP, and exactly the sort of thing I'd buy.
Man, I have no idea what WotC is doing with the GSL. You guys took a leap of faith, and now they're letting you twist in the wind.
Come on, Wizards! Let the 3rd parties in on what you're planning, and give them more freedom with products! It's frankly disgusting how opaque you've been about this whole thing.
A book of statted deities (renamed, I suppose, like in the APG, although it'd be nice if they could use the actual names without fear of reprisal) would be a great product for a 3PP, and exactly the sort of thing I'd buy.
I bet someone could call up scott rouse and be like "Hey X Y and Z isn't in the GSL, is there a chance it will be at some point , or are you guys doing something with it?" and explain what they want to do... from everything I have seen Scott is one of 2 things...
1) a great guy who is helpful
2) the devil incarnite (afterall villians that twist there mustashes are easy to find, one that cloaks himself in good deeds? much harder...)
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
God-killing and epic-level monsters are not the same thing. The poster I was responding to claimed that WotC was forcing their playstyle down our throats, which I thought was a ridiculous claim since the god-killing game information took up a single page in one 4E book.
Sorry, that wasn't pointed at you. Didn't mean to offend... the things you'd previously posted were not specifically considered in my comments. Wasn't blaming anyone, really. It's just annoying to see a post that is meant to inspire lively conversation turn into another arguement.
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Originally Posted by GMforPowergamers
I bet someone could call up scott rouse and be like "Hey X Y and Z isn't in the GSL, is there a chance it will be at some point , or are you guys doing something with it?" and explain what they want to do... from everything I have seen Scott is one of 2 things...
1) a great guy who is helpful
2) the devil incarnite
Oh, this is probably very true! I do not mean at all to criticize Mr. Rouse or anyone at Wizards. I simply meant to point out what our restrictions are. Personally, there's plenty of things I'd like to do that are both restricted by the GSL but also wouldn't (I'd hope) be intrusive into any Wizards IPs or future endeavors. Though I am a bit fidgety waiting for the updated liscense, it's more anticipatory and excited than frustrated. I have plenty of projects available to me now under the current GSL.
While I'm anxious for the changes, I can be patient. Mr. Rouse and the others at Wizards are busy folk, and (criticize me as you will) I trust in they're ability to deal with this issue in the near future.
As for how this relates to the subject, I hope this leads an SRD that includes terms more far-reaching than the ones found in the current list. This new mechanic is very coo, and seeing as how I didn't think of it first, I'd hope that no matter how unlikely it may be, certain developements outside the Core three books will be comes available for third party exploration soon.
I'm strongly of the belief that the final encounter of E3 (which I think doesn't have a name, yet) is going to be Orcus...given that he's the behind-the-scenes villain of H1.
I love these ideas about having a way of killing the evil gods. As someone pointed out, to get to level 30 you're playing characters of enormous power compared to anyone else. These characters should be the Elminsters, Drizzts, Raistlins & Druss of their worlds even if they don't kill a god, so the idea that fighting one should be anything less than campaign defining is slightly absurd to my mind.
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It seems clear to me that 4E is aimed towards GOOD vs EVIL. Just check MM and see how many good monsters are there. No surprise it won't be too many good gods stats...
A campaign for evil aligned characters isn't supported as well the ol' traditional and save "let's get rid of all evil"...
I'm not particularly fond of bad or good axis for campaign... I just feel it could be better balanced...
Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?
For a guy obsessed with semantics (like his explanation for why it's okay to say 4e is not D&D, but it's not okay to call 4e D&D), justanobody makes a ton of mistakes when it comes to actual facts.
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What are your hopes for future gods to be released? How do you plan to use Tiamat or her consorts (if at all?)? How does this offer new opportunities for epic level play?
My Athar members in my 4e PS game are very happy. Their metasetting agenda basically involves trying to subdue "evil" churches over "good" ones (for now) because they're easier targets. It'll be awesome to have the Godslayers Guild on the Astral Plane actually be able to kill some gods.
I'm a little sad we don't have stats for Bahamut (I understand why, but they still would have been very useful to me).
The discorporation and the quests to switch off that ability are great ideas, but greater than that is the philosophy behind fight-able deities. I think it's good and wonderful. Killing a god is absolutely in the mythic, epic tradition that D&D blatantly robs from at many other points, and this does it well.
I hope to eventually see good ascension rules, too.
The Draconomicon in many ways represents a better direction going forward for 4e than the core did. I haven't seen it yet (I'll be getting it later today), but if this is an example of the niftiness, it shall be nifty indeed.
Now if we could get some work done on dismantling and revising the obnoxious Powers system and an abstract combat system, 4e might actually start being not such a pain in the butt to play and DM for me.
Please, please do up the Raven Queen. You did Orcus and explained how the two have a powerful antipathy for each other as well as Orcus' goal of taking the Raven Queen's place. It would be nice to get the other side of the issue.
Plus I can totally see a plot where Orcus manipulates some unsuspecting PCs into slaying the Raven Queen and the Pcs have to set things right (and was it part of her plan all along?).
Weird, I could have sworn that Orcus was a demon lord. Did the Raven Queen die and make him a god?
Isn't he level 35 now like Tiamat? That would be god power, as well as being the prince of the undead would make him a minor god for his realm.
Where exactly did the Raven Queen come from? What book/year/page was she first printed so I can check their relationship?
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Originally Posted by The Little Raven
For a guy obsessed with semantics (like his explanation for why it's okay to say 4e is not D&D, but it's not okay to call 4e D&D), justanobody makes a ton of mistakes when it comes to actual facts.
And oddly people worship Orcus....worship = god to them.
113th(?) level of the Abyss is nothing to sneeze at. I have never played in the Abyss :gasp: So don't know all there is to know about it. Even deities took form on the Prime Material Plane when they were faced in my games. Because the gods are so petty they don't want mortals in their realms, and seek them out themselves to deal with them...oft to their own undoing.
So as far as I am concerned if somebody worships you, you are a deity.
Does it say in the new MM (which I have not read) that Orcus no longer has worshipers?
Hmmm?
Then the Princes of the Abyss are all gods.
worshiped = deity.
Cite me where it says Orcus is no longer worshiped in 4th, and I will accept he lost his godhood.
But that doesn't explain why he holds the same level as Tiamat, a goddess.
Last edited by justanobody; 21st November 2008 at 08:00 PM..
Reason: merge
Isn't he level 35 now like Tiamat? That would be god power, as well as being the prince of the undead would make him a minor god for his realm.
Where exactly did the Raven Queen come from? What book/year/page was she first printed so I can check their relationship
He is level 33, and yes, that means he wields as much power as some gods. Still, as I understand it, even though worshipped, he is not a god in 4e. He would like to though.
Raven Queen is a 4e thing, and in short:
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Originally Posted by Orcus Lore, 4e Monster Manual page 206
DC 20: Orcus desires destruction like all demons, but he
has set his sights higher, aiming at the gods themselves. In
particular, Orcus hungers for the death of the Raven Queen
and to usurp her control over death and the souls of the dead.
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
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