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He is level 33, and yes, that means he wields as much power as some gods. Still, as I understand it, even though worshipped, he is not a god in 4e. He would like to though.
Raven Queen is a 4e thing, and in short:
OK so with a 2 level adjustment he should hold the same power range as Tiamat....
He was viewed as a god for all intents in the past, so this new Raven Queen thing just means someone new added in the place he was viewed to hold prior....
So 4th removed his ambiguity of power and rank.
That just means then there is only one deity with stats pretty much and even harder to decide how to make other deities and more reason like mentioned by another to stat the gods for the PHB deities, so that Orcus could have the PCs fight the Raven Queen, or use them to fight someone else to distract her, or any other number of reasons he or another higher power being could have the PCs go after a god.
And since he is aiming for ALL the gods, then he could coerce the PCs into aiming for any of them as with a demigod PC may just want to side with him or dethrone a god of their own to round out the characters "life" in the game.
Thanks for that bit. Though I would have rather had the Bitch Queen over the Raven Queen.
Please, please do up the Raven Queen. You did Orcus and explained how the two have a powerful antipathy for each other as well as Orcus' goal of taking the Raven Queen's place. It would be nice to get the other side of the issue.
Plus I can totally see a plot where Orcus manipulates some unsuspecting PCs into slaying the Raven Queen and the Pcs have to set things right (and was it part of her plan all along?).
I totally bet Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead has Raven Queen stats (I'll even go a step futher and say Vecna, too).
Regarding the "why do the gods wait around for mortals to slay the bad guys" thing... in addition to the excellent reasons given, there's another common trope which could be used: prophecy. Even with a FR-like epic level character density in a campaign, it's only the Five from the Western Marches Who Slew the Immortal Gad at the Gates of Iron during the Return of the Herald's Comet that can bring down the God of Things Nasty and Damp. Coincidentally, the PCs just happen to have beat the tar out of Gad recently while vacationing at the Gates of Iron and there was a strange comet in the sky...
It could be that even gods can only truly kill each other under special circumstances, or have to undertake quests themselves to accomplish such things. Even the most powerful deities are servants of Destiny. Many are awed, humbled or jealous that fate often grants fearful power into the hands of mere mortals...
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
I totally bet Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead has Raven Queen stats (I'll even go a step futher and say Vecna, too).
The catalog blurb confirms Vecna, as well as Acererak. Rumors from the WotC forums say Strahd's in there too, and after seeing Cyan in the Draconomicon, I'll bet we get Lord Soth.
No. Unless they are listed as gods, they are not gods. The PHB has a list of gods (as does the FRCG), and none of those Demon Princes are on that list.
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worshiped = deity.
I could worship a shoe, but that wouldn't make it a deity. It takes more than some people worshipping you to make you a deity. It takes divine essence, which primordials and their Johnny-Come-Lately counterparts, the Demon Princes, lack.
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But that doesn't explain why he holds the same level as Tiamat, a goddess.
He's 2 levels lower than Tiamat, first off. Secondly, even if he was level 35 like she is, he still isn't a deity, because there's a lot more to her deity status (Discorporation, for one) than just being high level.
__________________ If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him... and take his stuff.
We don't see things as they are. We see things as we are.
Didn't gods in 3rd edition have salient abilities which distinguished them from other super-high-level monsters, or even super-high level adventurers?
So, what's the problem again which the anti-4th edition crowd has?
Deities in 3.x had minimum 20 HD (usually type Outsider), 30 to 50 character levels, and Divine Ranks as the stat which made them deities. Salient abilities are just a function of having Divine Ranks. 3.x deities were also an arbitrary, number-crunching, statistical mess...
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
Didn't gods in 3rd edition have salient abilities which distinguished them from other super-high-level monsters, or even super-high level adventurers?
So, what's the problem again which the anti-4th edition crowd has?
I didn't care for either the 3.x version or the 4e take. They both treat things as big monsters to kill, and 3.x by design sticks archfiends and planar lords as automatically lesser than gods, and 4e just has them as officially approved things for heroes to kill and gods seemingly sitting in the 'no no you can't fight Pelor' catagory of non-sanctioned monster.
Neither situation is ideal.
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
I didn't care for either the 3.x version or the 4e take. They both treat things as big monsters to kill, and 3.x by design sticks archfiends and planar lords as automatically lesser than gods, and 4e just has them as officially approved things for heroes to kill and gods seemingly sitting in the 'no no you can't fight Pelor' catagory of non-sanctioned monster.
Neither situation is ideal.
See the entire arguement around the idea that Wizards has a company, and therefor will release supplements that appeal to the majority of players. The majority of players want to kill Vecna much more than Pelor. And they want to kill Tiamat for Bahamut, not the other way around. They have limited resources, and they're not trying to "officially approve anything". You're still allowed to spend an hour or so putting together a stat block for a final epic battle with Kord if you like. They've even provided an entire chapter to monster design, and now you have an example of what a god is like.
Until then, they've made a choice that they believe appeals to the majority of players, restricting those who want to make a different choice in no way.
Well, it seems to be better than the 2nd edition approach, where god-killing was relegated to NPCs, because nobody knew what stats the gods would or should have at all, I guess.
Did 1st edition have stats for gods?
Perhaps one could have used whatever book dealed with divinities in 1st edition (probably Faiths and Powers, or Deities and Demigods, if the gods do have stats there at all) and simply take the stats from there for his party when playing some kind of epic 2nd edition-campaign back then.
According to many D&D-veterans here on this message board, there wasn't such a big difference between 1st and 2nd edition appearently.
Also, did 2nd edition actually have official rules for epic-level games anyway, or was it limited to a level cap (probably different for each class, or perhaps not)?
Well, it seems to be better than the 2nd edition approach, where god-killing was relegated to NPCs, because nobody knew what stats the gods would or should have at all, I guess.
Better for who? Some people liked that whole "Gods represent abstract concepts and are thus unable to be killed because they ARE that abstract concept" idea.
Pelor wasn't just some dude who ate too much radiation and so lit up like a night light. He was the embodiment of the very concept of LIGHT. If you want to "kill" Pelor, you'd need to destroy light itself.
I prefer Pelor to be slay-able myself, because I like that epic, mythic, Achilles-wrestling-a-friggin'-river wahoo feel of those high levels. I like the fact that you can kill Pelor, and then light itself dies as an unintended consequence.
It's okay either way, but I prefer to have usable stats. 3e's method was probably certifiably drunkenly insane. It was pure fan wank. "OMG THOR IS MORE POWERFUL THAN ZEUS LOL" All those stats and abilities ate up space that could have been better used on churches and NPC priests and stats of avatars or something.
4e's way isn't necessarily "better" than 2e's way, but it is different in a way that I appreciate.
Gods that embody abstract concepts, one example being probably the quite modern abrahamian god of Israel in religions originating from jewish belief, aren't like the gods of old, who were acting like mortals, and went to war with demons, other gods, or just had their ways with humans.
Other fictional abstract concepts are the Chaos gods of the Warhammer franchise, and they're not like Zeus, Thor, Shiva, Erawan, Susanoo and all those rather human-like gods (some not even mentaly, but also physicaly), which some of the original D&D-gods like from the Greyhawk-setting, or some of the myriad Forgotten Realms-gods (before the next god-catastrophy... haha) seem to be inspired from. Last I read in the 2nd edition Planescape books, it seems that all real-world gods from ancient religions also exist in that setting. All the more they should have been killable.
By the way, did they have Yaweh in Planescape too, or was he omitted from the Planescape setting? I guess it would seem so, as TSR appearently changed the descriptions demons and devils into tanari and baatezu.
Last I read in the 2nd edition Planescape books, it seems that all real-world gods from ancient religions also exist in that setting. All the more they should have been killable.
By the way, did they have Yaweh in Planescape too, or was he omitted from the Planescape setting? I guess it would seem so, as TSR appearently changed the descriptions demons and devils into tanari and baatezu.
Nah, 2e steered away from Abrahamic religion.
But its view of the PC's was more...mmm...Tolkeinish? than Epic. They were mortals, they had mortal fears, they would grow old and die, they might be especially nifty mortals, but they were mere mortals, whose lot in life the gods could manipulate and execute as they pleased. If you could kill something, it obviously wasn't a god, because gods are basically immortal and are immune to direct assault. If you want to slay Pelor, you need to destroy LIGHT, not stab some guy.
I appreciate 3e's and 4e's view (and I especially appreciate that 4e designed them to be used rather than drooled over), but the default 2e view loaned itself to a feel that is key for a lot of people. It's not exactly in synch with 4e's feel, though.
I guess it would seem so, as TSR appearently changed the descriptions demons and devils into tanari and baatezu.
They renamed them (though later also used demon etc), but the material was significantly darker than any of the material from 1e (and with slim exception, most material since then). The mid/late 2e fiends were awesome.
And as far as YHWH goes, every edition of D&D has tiptoed around the Abrahamic religions. Most of the other real world religions that appeared through the editions were either dead (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian gods, etc) or didn't have enough of a presence within WotC/TSR's buying public that played D&D to really matter for purposes of needing to avoid offense (Hinduism, etc).
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
Well, it seems to be better than the 2nd edition approach, where god-killing was relegated to NPCs, because nobody knew what stats the gods would or should have at all, I guess.
Did 1st edition have stats for gods?
Perhaps one could have used whatever book dealed with divinities in 1st edition (probably Faiths and Powers, or Deities and Demigods, if the gods do have stats there at all) and simply take the stats from there for his party when playing some kind of epic 2nd edition-campaign back then.
According to many D&D-veterans here on this message board, there wasn't such a big difference between 1st and 2nd edition appearently.
Also, did 2nd edition actually have official rules for epic-level games anyway, or was it limited to a level cap (probably different for each class, or perhaps not)?
2nd edition didn't really even have default deities in the core books. Deities were left to be described within their own settings material, and I think they all had some from written in them for the god to interact with the mortals, and if you could kill them there then so be it.
Many things in 2nd did refer back to a little conversion from 1st because it was already there.
I know Reorx had a form to appear in on the Prime Material Plane.
I didn't care for either the 3.x version or the 4e take. They both treat things as big monsters to kill, and 3.x by design sticks archfiends and planar lords as automatically lesser than gods, and 4e just has them as officially approved things for heroes to kill and gods seemingly sitting in the 'no no you can't fight Pelor' catagory of non-sanctioned monster.
Neither situation is ideal.
Neither situation is ideal for your campaign. Guess what is less ideal? Someone who does want to run a campaign culminating in a final battle against a terrible god, and has no rules for fighting Tiamat. Because they have to go and come up with rules for what is probably the most complex foe that will ever see play in their campaign.
Whereas, in the current scenario, all you need to do is not provide the quests that allow your PCs to kill a god.
Now, I don't think the books need to be chock-full of gods to slay. (Especially as just having the stats for a few gives an appropriate balance level to start designing agaisnt with much more ease.) But there are plenty of players out there that do want these stats - I, personally, found them the single most interesting thing in Draconomicon!
Saying that other players should be deprived of them because you disapprove - especially since their presence in no way actually hurts your own campaign - seems rather unfair.
I mean, I certainly understand where you are coming from. I can definitely see preferring a campaign where defeating a god isn't a matter of rolling some sweet crits, but instead requires an elaborate scheme of intrigue and politics as you dismantle their church, turn their worshippers against them, strike their name from the book of records, and eventually, without having to swing a single blow, you watch their earthly power vanish and know they have been vanquished in truth.
But I also like the idea of a campaign where you stand as the champions of light against the darkness, the sole hope for the world's survival, and thus you must fulfill the great prophecies: Forging the Twice-Sundered Blade, restoring the Broken Desert to the lush forest it once was, uniting the seven kingdoms into a single empire, and eventually luring the Lord of Burning Chaos onto the mortal plane during the Great Eclipse, the single moment in which he is vulnerable, and knowing you have a single minute to strike a death-blow with your ultimate weapon, or he will escape, and all will be lost...
...I simply don't see how something like that isn't suitably epic. It is very much in keeping with the lore and legends that D&D has formed around, and it is the route the game encourages - not simply taking out gods like mooks, but making them the culminating battle of a campaign, and one that requires several epic quests simply to make possible.
If they can provide that opportunity to the players that want it, without depriving you of any content you desire (since you can still run your game the way you want it), then that seems like a success that everyone can go home happy with.
Better for who? Some people liked that whole "Gods represent abstract concepts and are thus unable to be killed because they ARE that abstract concept" idea.
Pelor wasn't just some dude who ate too much radiation and so lit up like a night light. He was the embodiment of the very concept of LIGHT. If you want to "kill" Pelor, you'd need to destroy light itself.
I prefer Pelor to be slay-able myself, because I like that epic, mythic, Achilles-wrestling-a-friggin'-river wahoo feel of those high levels. I like the fact that you can kill Pelor, and then light itself dies as an unintended consequence.
It's okay either way, but I prefer to have usable stats. 3e's method was probably certifiably drunkenly insane. It was pure fan wank. "OMG THOR IS MORE POWERFUL THAN ZEUS LOL" All those stats and abilities ate up space that could have been better used on churches and NPC priests and stats of avatars or something.
4e's way isn't necessarily "better" than 2e's way, but it is different in a way that I appreciate.
I prefer having the deities statted up because that sets up the players to actually expect said deity to have those stats. Then, when they finally confront Pelor and he is Ten Times More Badass(TM) they have a nice, pseudo-realistic sense of fear and terror that they are wayyyyyyyyyyyy overmatched.
P.S. Zeus could kick Thor's yass.
Last edited by TarionzCousin; 22nd November 2008 at 09:56 AM..
But its view of the PC's was more...mmm...Tolkeinish? than Epic. They were mortals, they had mortal fears, they would grow old and die, they might be especially nifty mortals, but they were mere mortals, whose lot in life the gods could manipulate and execute as they pleased. If you could kill something, it obviously wasn't a god, because gods are basically immortal and are immune to direct assault. If you want to slay Pelor, you need to destroy LIGHT, not stab some guy.
I appreciate 3e's and 4e's view (and I especially appreciate that 4e designed them to be used rather than drooled over), but the default 2e view loaned itself to a feel that is key for a lot of people. It's not exactly in synch with 4e's feel, though.
Why not do exactly that? Make it an epic quest to destroy all light, and then have Pelor come to the PCs and try to undo it...
Somehow, it reminds me of Hogfather (Discworld)... Hmm. Maybe someone else then Pelor tries to stop you?
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Forgive the thread necromancy but, I feel now that Open Grave has released with Vecna's stats, this thread needs resurgence.
With that said, I'm starting to wonder about this so called "market" for good aligned or unaligned campaigns or games that WotC adamantly gives as the reason for excluding good aligned stat blocks and the like. I just don't see how it's possible that a majority of the market cares not for evil aligned campaigns.
As an example, as a GM/DM who likes to test the waters of his players, I opted to ask about and try out an evil campaign about 8 months ago. Amazingly, I had an overwhelming # of players asking me to join the campaign (upwards of a dozen), and all of them knowledgable on the idea that;
a) their would be trouble with each other because well (as the most recent evil article on WotC clarifies), evil doesn't get along with evil, &
b) They would be fighting the "good guys"; good dragons, good people, good gods, etc.
That being said, it makes me wonder if it's that their really isn't a market for it; or if it's just that WotC doesn't have the resources available to deal with both sides of the equation.
Personally, after having tried that idea out, I would love to run an evil campaign where, for example, the PC's ultimate goal is to stop the gods of Celestia from killing their evil god (insert name here) because the PC's evil god stepped out of line. The last portion of the campaign would require them to actually sneak into Celestia, and find someway to kill one of it's gods, whether Bahamut or Moradin, so as to destabilize the plane itself and allow their god to continue his or her deeds with impunity.
I know for a fact that id have at least 8 players onboard immediately If I started this campaign right now. So yes, although justanybody lost perspective on the goal of his responses (and in general), I have to agree with him to an extent. The market, at least from my experience and experimentation, is quite there, and not as small as WotC makes it look. Why not cater a bit more to it than their doing now? Give Pelor, Bahamut, Moradin, and Ioun, and any other non evil god stat blocks, or at the very least, fight-able aspects. I think it would go a longer ways than they imagine to appeasing the masses.
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