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The recent "Save my Game" column speaks about "evil campaigns" and gives some good advice.
Still, evil campaigns will probably never be "important" enough for WotC to support it entirely.
Regarding gods, all the Gods with stats so far have been typically "lesser Gods", not the old, super-powerful ones. Bane for example didn't get a write-up in his own article.
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The recent "Save my Game" column speaks about "evil campaigns" and gives some good advice.
Still, evil campaigns will probably never be "important" enough for WotC to support it entirely.
Regarding gods, all the Gods with stats so far have been typically "lesser Gods", not the old, super-powerful ones. Bane for example didn't get a write-up in his own article.
Well the thing is, the old "super-powerful" ones can't be that much more powerful than the post level 30 creatures we have now or they start contradicting the articles and fluff they've created thus far. I mean, for example, what reason do the gods have to continually watch over Mual-tar the Thunder Serpent with their legions of angels if their powerful enough to take it on? Anything past level 40 should be able to take Mual-Tar on without much of a problem whatsoever. Why leave it chained with possibility of breaking free and regaining it's own original, "we need three super gods to take on this guy!" power levels?
I've also been arguing against their lack of Bane stats in the Wizards forums for a few days now. I'm still under the impression that they just didn't "feel like" posting Bane's stats. Bane not being fightable through normal means because his stats are too powerful still doesn't mean they needed to consider the idea then dismiss it beause they "felt" we as dm's and players didn't "need" them. If their already making the article, then put everything you know should be in it, whether you feel the readers need it or not. Let the reader make that decision. "Oh it's impossible to fight him"; riiight, because DM's have no say in what players can't or cannot do in their games...
Well, I think that during the war with the primordials the gods would have been weaker - they had fewer followers. Destroying the primordials back then was likely harder than it would be now.
Also, if Bane went and unchained Mual-Tar to kill him, who would watch over his realm? Gruumsh would move right in. I'm sure the other gods have similar predicaments, though perhaps not quite as close to home.
Forgive the thread necromancy but, I feel now that Open Grave has released with Vecna's stats, this thread needs resurgence.
My thread is back
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With that said, I'm starting to wonder about this so called "market" for good aligned or unaligned campaigns or games that WotC adamantly gives as the reason for excluding good aligned stat blocks and the like. I just don't see how it's possible that a majority of the market cares not for evil aligned campaigns...
You make a clear and very valid point! I also agree that evil campaigns are fun and interesting, and that there is a giant demand. In fact, last Sunday, my Paladin of Kelemvor said at the table that he'd always been interested in an evil campaign, to which my other players gave resounding "same here"s. And they're a pretty roleplaying-intensive group.
The decision for Wizards to create only good-aligned content for now is, however completely within my understanding. It's not only a business decision to appeal to a wider market, but I would say that the game needs something more like Arcane Power right now than it does Book of Vile Darkness. While it would be great to see these materials, I think they're still down the road a little bit. I truely believe Wizards intends to release evil-aligned materials in the future. Sure, they could have done a better job, maybe putting out one or two Dragon articles already, but for now, adapting the rules isn't too tough.
One thing I would refer you to is the new "Masters of the Planes" article about planar epic destinies. While they note that a "Prince of Hell" wouldn't neccessarily have to be evil, it cerntainly seemed like a sweet hit of evil-aligned content to me.
I hope as well for evil aligned content. I can be patient, however, as I do not believe it is Wizard's intention to not ever release it.
I also agree that evil campaigns are fun and interesting, and that there is a giant demand.
How would you know that there's a giant demand for it? Annecdotes and message boards aren't good enough proof for that. Although Wotc implemented tieflings as 'evil-curious' characters, so there is a slight hint for peole who want to play something like that.
Well the thing is, the old "super-powerful" ones can't be that much more powerful than the post level 30 creatures we have now or they start contradicting the articles and fluff they've created thus far. I mean, for example, what reason do the gods have to continually watch over Mual-tar the Thunder Serpent with their legions of angels if their powerful enough to take it on? Anything past level 40 should be able to take Mual-Tar on without much of a problem whatsoever. Why leave it chained with possibility of breaking free and regaining it's own original, "we need three super gods to take on this guy!" power levels?
If I remember correctly, Mual-Tar's imprisonment has greatly weakened the primordial's power, which is a scary thought since he's still a Level 35 Solo Brute.
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If I remember correctly, Mual-Tar's imprisonment has greatly weakened the primordial's power, which is a scary thought since he's still a Level 35 Solo Brute.
Also, the Bane article explains in detail why they don't just go kill all of the primordials. The reason escapes me at the moment.
This is one thing that I think 4E is doing right: giving regular stats for these critters. I don't buy that whole 2E thing about not being able to kill these critters, they're too powerful, etc. The D&D world is 'Nam, and if it's in 'Nam the PCs will want to napalm it.
Tiamat and Vecna are good choices for the stat block treatment... they're jerks. Just the types that PCs will want to take out! They should stat up Ares at some point... that bozo has it coming, I'm sure everyone will agree.
I can see the point about just providing stats across the board, but I can also see the point that the goodies are a lower priority. Who exactly wants to kill Pelor? Maybe the Drow, but they can never seem to get their act together on anything.
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Only really specific things want to kill good gods. Most of the time, evil guys can't be buggered to take out a good god for seemingly no reason or reward.
Meanwhile, everyone wants to axe off an evil god. Good guys do it for truth and justice and whatnot. Evil guys do it to usurp their power.
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If I remember correctly, Mual-Tar's imprisonment has greatly weakened the primordial's power, which is a scary thought since he's still a Level 35 Solo Brute.
Yea but, when you get to levels 30+, you can see that a single level is already quite a power loss. Take Orcus and then Tiamat and Vecna for example. Yeah, they have similar stats, but Orcus wishes he could take on level 30 adventurers alone the way Tiamat can.And he can't negate damage from level 20 or below randoms either.
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Originally Posted by chaotix42
Well, I think that during the war with the primordials the gods would have been weaker - they had fewer followers. Destroying the primordials back then was likely harder than it would be now.
I agree on one thing though - gimme Bane's stats!
The Bane article explains that they were evenly matched, and that the deities were simply just completely disorganized. And yes to Bane stats; that's the reason I brought this thread back, lol.
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Originally Posted by JackSmithIV
Also, the Bane article explains in detail why they don't just go kill all of the primordials. The reason escapes me at the moment.
Well yes, it does, but it also asks the question, if the gods KNOW a primordial is slowly being set loose because they have their own angels watching it in an isolated prison in the elemental chaos, then why aren't they at least traveling there to re-bind him (because as the Bane article explains, they don't want to kill the primordials)? The answer is because it's too dangerous for them. I mean, the Bane article explained what happened when he killed his brother; they all went there "together" to stop Bane. So from that alone we can infer that the greater gods aren't SOO much more powerful than gods like Vecna and Tiamat.
Which of course brings us back to the original question; where's Banes stats?They gave us XP up to level 40 in the DMG, they should live up to their own expectations at the very least, even if it means catering to the home-brewers (which I might add are a huge portion of the purchasing power for WotC in this area, besides Magic the Gathering of course).
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Originally Posted by ProfessorCirno
Only really specific things want to kill good gods. Most of the time, evil guys can't be buggered to take out a good god for seemingly no reason or reward.
Meanwhile, everyone wants to axe off an evil god. Good guys do it for truth and justice and whatnot. Evil guys do it to usurp their power.
Well there's 11 really specific things in my venue where I run my D&D campaigns and mods that would like to give some good gods a thumping (my players, obviously, lol). And no reason or reward? How about usurping THEIR power?
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Originally Posted by DandD
How would you know that there's a giant demand for it? Annecdotes and message boards aren't good enough proof for that. Although Wotc implemented tieflings as 'evil-curious' characters, so there is a slight hint for peole who want to play something like that.
Well, I don't know about the people in the area of the person you responded too, but players around here, Kendall, South Florida (U.S), love the idea of playing evil characters. So much so that the DM's around here often have to reign them in when they make unaligned characters. They just really like it.
One thing that I think people should keep in mind when going around and around about whether or not PC's can kill a god is to remember that by the time that the PC's are looking in the gods direction, most of the time they are no longer mortal themselves.
See, 4th ed. introduced Epic Destinies into the game, and imo they are one of the best new additions to the game. Some ED's include:
Prince of Hell- you are becoming an arch-devil.
Darklord- you are becoming a legendary Darklord (like Strahd!)
Ruler of Winter- becoming an Archfey of the Feywild.
Demigod- just what the name implies.
Undying Warrior- An immortal warrior who litterally can't die (unless you choose to).
My point is these arent just prestige classes (to use a 3rd ed. term), or "mere" paragon paths; this is what you were destined for, your becoming. That a party of these mighty beings could take on a god physically is not suprising to me.
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