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There is not much talk about the Draconomicon on this board. I wonder what the reason is?
I can't really say as I don't play 4E, but am just interested in the Fluff and Lore in this book. And for the most part its not as good as the 3E Draconomicon.
The information about the physiology is the same as in the 3E book (except for a "medichlorian syndrome" when they want to explain how frightful presence works hoping to give an explanation why it is an encounter power)
The religion is flat out worse than in 3E with only having two gods which don't recieve much pages for them and some exarchs which are just other 3E dragon gods now demoted (and got their race changed because everything has to be chromatic in this book)
There are twoo good bits in the lore chapter of the book, the discussion about how dragons search lairs and an article about their mindset and how they think differently from humans.
WotC avoids one logical error from the old Draconomicon by increasing the young age of dragons (in 3E dragons reproduced faster then elves and likely dwarves too). but does not fix another problem, that they say that uncared wyrmlings have a low survival rate and I have a hard time to imagine of how a pack of level 3-5 elites can't survive in teh wilderness while normal animals can.
There is a section about treasure generation which looks like the random treasure guidelines in 3E. Generally when you have the 3E Draconomicon you don't need it. The chapter also describes using coins as difficult terrain and other obstacles in battle, but then all sample hoards don't have enough coin to actually make use of that feature...
Then you have lots of monsters and some artifacts and example lairs/mini adventures which I can't comment on as to mee all 4E monsters look the same and I don't like the idea of having an level 6 artifact.
Lastly you have example dragons which are entirely unneeded as in 4E you don't have to build dragons anymore. It also spends a few words on famous dragons of various campaign settings which doesn't tell you more than their race and that they do generic draconic things. Also their fluff is vastly inferior to their 3E fluff. For example Dargototh (Wyrm of the North, freely availiable on the website) went from "Ancient wizard dracolich who wants to sire the perfect dragon race and thus experiments with becoming alive again and mixing different dragons into the perfect mate" into "Dracolich which has minions steal things from Waterdeep".
Finally, as simulationist gamer there are two things in the book which get my hope up that after all the complains WotC might think about throwing the at least a single bone to simulationist play.
First the feary dragon looks like WotC went a little away from their "You don't fight it, you don't need it" principle as I can't imagine that many people will fight generally peaceful feary dragons.
Second, and more importatnly, the book has rituals designed to be used primary by dragons and there is a suggestion in it how to regulate which dragon can use which ritual.
Also, hidden among flavour text, they give dragons away to boost their stats by magical items.
So partially I could understand if there isn't much interest in it. When you have the 3E Draconomicon all you can get are some monster stats and mini adventures which you could also get from Dragon and Dungeon.
Ultimatels I didn't buy the book because even though I am a dragon fan(atic) as I don't play 4E I don't get much use out of the book as so much stuff overlaps with the 3E Draconomicon which I have.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Last edited by Derren; 22nd November 2008 at 02:49 PM..
I would absolutely love to talk about it, but fact is, the shipment has been delayed (I assume for Europe, or at least northern Europe) and it is at the present time, impossible to buy in my country.
Giev!
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Speaking for myself, no there really isn't. But then I wasn't terribly interested (read: didn't read or buy) in the 3e Draconomicon either.
By way of actually attempting to be helpful, I swear there were a few posts about this about ten - twelve hours ago, not that I can find them now......
__________________ I am a naughty lovecraftian goddess!
From my PoV, I already know how I want my dragons to be, which is to say "not fiends". If thinking differently means thinking differently from a powerful human intelligence-level beast, then I'm not interested. So it's not useful to me as a DM.
Also, I do not want to see any dragon-themed stuff for PCs. (As a player, I have no interest in being dragonborn or anything draconic.) And I'm not interested in making such crunch available for players either - like in 3.x, I'm avoiding buying splatbooks.
There is not much talk about the Draconomicon on this board. I wonder what the reason is?
Hey, I started a thread about Tiamat (which got forked twice and evolved into more edition wars)! Mainly I think there's just not enough to disagree about, which is a huge thing in the forums these days, unfortunately. I'd love to be talking more about this supplement. I'm simply amazed by the amount of content. It's simply packed. I'm not even much of a dragon fan, but the books gives me so much to work with, I can't image not using it.
Ultimatels I didn't buy the book because even though I am a dragon fan(atic) as I don't play 4E I don't get much use out of the book as so much stuff overlaps with the 3E Draconomicon which I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemeska
Thank you for the review
I want more reviews by people who do not play the game, nor buy the book. I mean, what better way to judge if it useful...
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
Location: In a state of regret for allowing myself to get so damned fat.
Posts: 659
To be honest, I have no idea how these books (3e or 4e) sell any copies whatsoever. The utility of such books around the table is, I would think, very limited. There are better options if one is looking for leisurely reading.
So, no - not interest in Draconomicon. Not in the old version of D&D, not in the new.
I have the Draconomicon and love it. Granted a big part of my love is all the draconic monsters. I am smack dab in the middle of a dragon-focused adventure with a cleric of tiamat and everything, and using the material from the book will be very handy. It is even such that I am thinking of making one of the major campaign hooks be a war against the clergy and dragon servants of Tiamat. Granted, this requires player buy-in, but I think I can make them a fun threat regardless of how much the PCs want to have the campaign be about them.
__________________ Jesse Dean
-----------------------------------------------
Human Male Smart Hero 3
Str: 10 Dex: 9 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 13 Cha: 11
From my PoV, I already know how I want my dragons to be, which is to say "not fiends". If thinking differently means thinking differently from a powerful human intelligence-level beast, then I'm not interested. So it's not useful to me as a DM.
Thinking differently doesn't mean that they think completely alien. They just have different experiences. For example, because dragons don't have a society and can do whatever they want, they don't understand the concept of peer pressure or social norm. Unless a dragon had previous experiences with human culture it can't understand why humans can't simply steal, kill or do some other things because of social norms.
Quote:
Also, I do not want to see any dragon-themed stuff for PCs. (As a player, I have no interest in being dragonborn or anything draconic.) And I'm not interested in making such crunch available for players either - like in 3.x, I'm avoiding buying splatbooks.
The 4E Draconomicon does not have much PC stuff. The only things are that PCs can use dragon organs to empower rituals and can get 3 dragon related artifacts (one more suited for dragon slaying).
Some of the rituals can be used by them, especially if they are a dragonborn and have a breath weapon, but they are rather useless for adventurers.
I guess all the PC related dragon stuff (besides Dragonslayers which according to this board appeared in Dragon) will be in the Draconomicon 2 (if that book will come out. There aren't many general things left to say about dragons).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack99
I want more reviews by people who do not play the game, nor buy the book. I mean, what better way to judge if it useful...
I guess that means that you will write a full review when you get your copy?
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Last edited by Derren; 22nd November 2008 at 06:28 PM..
Not a 4e player, but I had the chance to page through it. My impressions:
- Descriptions of dragons take up a few pages in the front. Bloodied breath gets an in-game explanation.
- "Brown dragon" is never going to sound scary. Also, brown is not a chroma.
- "Purple dragon" ... time for a healthy snack?
Then you have the rest of the book, which mainly consists of oodles and oodles pre-made encounters. There appeared to be some attempt to make ready to play versions of each dragon at various ages, but in the new scheme, with different dragons of the same color having different roles, I'm not sure it's entirely comprehensive. Maybe someone else can comment on that.
"Dragonkin kobolds" are statted out with next to no flavor.
To me, it really looks like about thee super-modules smooshed together, with all the plot taken out.
So far, it's my favorite 4e book, and I'm working some monsters into my game today.
It has some pretty good fluff in a lot of parts. I like the alternate abilities as a way to bring back some of the old dragon flavor. The monster philosophy seems to have shifted, at least a little bit, and that's a very good thing.
But there's still plenty of groan-moments. Dargototh is one of the more brilliant "rob anything interesting from this creature" times.
Martial Power I have bigger complaints about, but it does what it set out to do.
Draconomicon is all right. It gives me some faith that future monster books will be better than the MM. I actually want to USE some of the monsters in there.
I liked the 3e one and did use it in my games (although not that much) but I'm not sure whether or not to get the 4e one. Can anyone summarise the contents? More opinions needed too!
Books used last session Black Horse Parsantium campaign: 4e core rules, Player's Handbook 2 (invoker), Adventurer's Vault, Wrath of the River King. Dulwich Parsantium campaign: 4e core rules, Forgotten Realms Player's Guide (genasi, swordmage), Players' Handbook 2 (barbarian), Dragon (Playing Gnolls), Sellswords of Punjar (the adventure) Lands of Intrigue: 3.5 core rules, Arcana Evolved (unfettered), Ptolus, Spell Compendium, Complete Book of Eldritch Might, The Banewarrens (the adventure), Book of Nine Swords (Desert Wind), Monster Manual V (demons)
I liked the 3e one and did use it in my games (although not that much) but I'm not sure whether or not to get the 4e one. Can anyone summarise the contents? More opinions needed too!
Cheers
Richard
Someone posted a (small) table of contents some days ago.
1: Dragon Lore--pgs 4-42
2: DM's Guid to Dragons--pgs44-88
3: Dragon Lairs--pgs90-164
4: New Monsters--pgs166-254
1. Mostly the same than in the 3E Draconomicon. Dragon Physiology is nearly identical except for some changes to justify encounter powers. Dragon Psychology has a few nice bits in it and about 2 pages of information about each chromatic dragon type (again like in 3E except for changed fluff and the new chromatics)
2. A mishmash of treasure guidlines like in 3E with suggestion how to use piles of gold coins as special terrain (a option all sample hoards don't use as they don't have enough coins in them), adventure seeds and a few artifacts.
3. A discussion about how lairs are chosen and some sample lair mini adventures
4. Lots of new monsters, I think most things the 3E Draconomicon had. A lot of skeletal dragons variations if you ask me. Also some related monsters like Abiashi and special kobolds.
It also has a small list of famous dragons from various sample dragons (which butchers any fluff they had) and a few sample dragons (although I don't know if they are different from standard MM dragons).
That is all from memory so I might have missed or misplaced something, especially as I was not interested much in monsters and miniadventures.
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
Last edited by Derren; 22nd November 2008 at 09:19 PM..
I thumbed through the book at my FLGS... Can't say there was much I'd use in it... I cannot remember a time when I used anything from the old Draconomicon, save a single fang dragon wyrmling that accompanied a party of PCs for a while.
My full review on Critical Hits will be up next Friday.
Short review:
It's different than the 3e version in that it's solely for DMs, but clearly it's in the same spirit. First half has things taken from older Draconomicon, like dragon anatomy descriptions. Last half more monster stat block focused, including famous dragons, new colors of dragons, and dragon-kin. It also includes some monsters that debuted in one of the later Monster Manuals.
From strict rules perspective, useful if you want more monsters in 4e. From non-rules perspective, probably the best book so far that is useful outside of its edition.
I'm in the process of reading the book right now and have only got through Chapter 1. Can't say that I have too many complaints (and I'm not normally one for fantasy physiology) so far.
__________________ Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
I guess that means that you will write a full review when you get your copy?
Nah, I am incapable of such a thing. I will stick to my short-form-"reviews", and leave the real reviewing to others.
I think it is great that you, as a self-professed dragon-fan post your opinion - I have nothing against that. I just wouldn't call it a review (Which mr. planescape did), especially since it seems that you merely browsed through it at the store.
/shrug
__________________
355 hours played
Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
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