General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Sadly, I have yet to look into the Popison Ivy products yet...
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Originally Posted by Jack99
I think JackSmithIV is reminding you that you seem to have forgotten this new awesome PDF-publisher called One Bad Egg!
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Originally Posted by catsclaw227
If I am not mistaken, some of these smaller new 3PPs are just guys in the biz that started a new business for this purpose. Isn't OneBadEgg just a collection of guys around the industry? I mean, their team is behind Fate and Spirit of the Century, Indie Press Revolution, and even EnWorld's CamBanks (of Dragonlance fame) is doing stuff for them.
It looks like, my friend Jack99, that your thread-fu has grown weak! But, I will admit it was up near post fifty-sumthin-r-other, and my short term thread memory is about 30 posts or so.
__________________ Game on, gang! Ptolus #16, Rappan Athuk Reloaded #37
Characters & Games
Books currently in play: Dungeon & Dragon Magazine (*Scales of War AP*), WOTC 4e Core and Supplemental books
Current Campaign: Scales of War - Siege of Bordrin's Watch -- Kodirgo, Minotaur Barbarian 3; Rangrin, Dwarf Ranger 3; Lumberg, Human Warlord 3; Vintani Windleaf, Eladrin Swordmage 3; Marshaun, Elf Druid 3
If there is anyone who dislikes the GSL as-is more than I do, I have yet to meet him. I am pro-OGL all the way. I am not a big fan of 4e as written, and I admit I would have liked to have seen a 3pp rewrite.
And, yet, even I recognize that trying to give WotC a deadline at this point is a bad, bad idea. In fact, it is IMHO, a worse idea than the current GSL.
3pp are using the GSL as-is on the basis of good faith and the promise of revision, and I'm guessing that some of them at least (Clark at Necromancer, if no one else) has some idea what the revision will look like. Attempts to strong-arm WotC are only going to push the GSL revision back. An OGL 4e-clone would really push the revision back......certainly it would give the Legal Department something more important to deal with.
Mr. The Rouse hasn't hidden from his responsibilities IMHO. Rather, he has taken them on manfully. He ought to be applauded for the same. He has ensured that several 3pp are comfortable enough with what the revision will look like that they have begun producing material for 4e. This isn't a minor accomplishment.
The most recent issue of Dragon Roots (DRAGON ROOTS) came out with both 3.5 and 4e content because WotC is willing to work with 3pp. Again, it is my understanding that Mr. The Rouse deserves real kudos for his involvement.
Even though I am not a 4e player, I recognize that there is a lot of good in the ruleset, and it has made a lot of people happy. The design team merged their ideas of "smart play" and "satisfying play" extremely well, so if you find the sort of game they're offering satisfying, the rules won't get in your way. This is definitely praiseworthy.
Again, Kudos.
Mr. The Rouse, should you ever be in Toronto, I'll buy you a beer too. Yours is a thankless job.
It looks like, my friend Jack99, that your thread-fu has grown weak! But, I will admit it was up near post fifty-sumthin-r-other, and my short term thread memory is about 30 posts or so.
While the revised GSL is on hold, then it may also place the the functionality of a publisher on hold as well.
Which parts are the existig GSL are preventing you publishing now? I assume, unlike, for example, myself, you don't have a back-catalogue of OGL products to worry about, which deals with most of the GSL complaints.
__________________
War of the Burning Sky A 12-part 4E campaign saga, taking characters from 1st-30th level!
War is coming. Are you ready?
Which parts are the existig GSL are preventing you publishing now? I assume, unlike, for example, myself, you don't have a back-catalogue of OGL products to worry about, which deals with most of the GSL complaints.
The problem with the GSL is the death warrant you sign for yourself with the bound forever and change at will clauses.
__________________ Brain: Come Pinky! We must prepare for tomorrow night.
Pinky: Why? What are we going to do tomorrow night?
Brain: The same thing we do every night....TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
The problem with the GSL is the death warrant you sign for yourself with the bound forever and change at will clauses.
Also personally, I don't like the section about "redefine terms" that gives WotC the rights to public domain names such as elf/etc to dictate to me how I would describe or detail them.
Not having done OGL content it doesn't bother me but, I see claiming ownership in any form of public domain terms as a violation and makes the GSL not even legal.
Now D&D has some staple, sacred-cows, that must be there for looks, and I think it is good to have these "demihumans" as part of the core, but the problem lies in the fact that they are public domain things: elves, dwarves, HUMANS!
Had they wanted the GSL to really protect their IP, then they needed to create from whole cloth completely new races. Not include elf at all, but have Eladrin in its place. If for some reason I actually might be insane enough to like Nordic mythology and want my elves to resemble those from it, I should not have to supplant some additional word to "elf" to prevent from "redefining terms" that would constitute some breach of the contract and license.
That personally is one big thing I am looking at in regards to the problems of the GSL, as well as other things like what was mentioned in the quoted post here.
Last edited by justanobody; 28th November 2008 at 08:25 PM..
Like it or not, the GSL is workable enough for Mongoose and Goodman to use it. They have plenty to loose should WotC try to "bring them down with it," but WotC has not done anything to indicate that they have any interest in doing that. It would be like a giant swatting the gnats because they're eating all the giant's food. That's just silly. Either the giant had enough food to start with or didn't. Wizards obviously feel they have a large enough market share as is.
The GSL might not be perfect but it i "good enough" for several publishers to work with it. Yea, its sad that Necro isn't publishing, its sad that Paizo went their own way, but such is life. "You will lose some friends and gain new ones. The process is painful but often necessary. They will change, you will change, because life is changing." -John Sheridan, President of the Interstellar Alliance.
Also personally, I don't like the section about "redefine terms" that gives WotC the rights to public domain names such as elf/etc to dictate to me how I would describe or detail them.
You gotta give something in exchange. It's not a free gift - it's a contract, where both parties give something. WotC gives this powerful brand name, in exchange for which you give up certain rights. You're not forced to sign that contract; but if you think it's worth it to you, you will.
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but, I see claiming ownership in any form of public domain terms as a violation and makes the GSL not even legal.
Fortunately, the welath of legal jurisdiction disagrees with you. A contract is legal as long as it doesn't require any criminal act.
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Had they wanted the GSL to really protect their IP, then they needed to create from whole cloth completely new races. Not include elf at all, but have Eladrin in its place. If for some reason I actually might be insane enough to like Nordic mythology and want my elves to resemble those from it, I should not have to supplant some additional word to "elf" to prevent from "redefining terms" that would constitute some breach of the contract and license.
You're free to do all that. You just don't get to slap a shiny D&D logo on your product. I'm a pubisher with a vested financial interest in this, and I think that's perfectly fair.
The only thing stopping me signing it is the "trash all your OGL stuff" clause. Can't afford to do that.
__________________
War of the Burning Sky A 12-part 4E campaign saga, taking characters from 1st-30th level!
War is coming. Are you ready?
You gotta give something in exchange. It's not a free gift - it's a contract, where both parties give something. WotC gives this powerful brand name, in exchange for which you give up certain rights. You're not forced to sign that contract; but if you think it's worth it to you, you will.
And I refuse to give control of the English language to WotC, or conform to their ideals of what my IP should be. They control their IP, not mine. They are asking WAY too much for those names and things that are in public domain.
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Fortunately, the wealth of legal jurisdiction disagrees with you. A contract is legal as long as it doesn't require any criminal act.
This will only be proven true AFTER the GSL has be involved in a court case.
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You're free to do all that. You just don't get to slap a shiny D&D logo on your product. I'm a pubisher with a vested financial interest in this, and I think that's perfectly fair.
The thing is you don't have to have a financial interest, it just happens that you do. I could not create a fan product with the D&D logo because it tells me what I have to use as definitions for public domain terms. That is where the thing falls flat.
What you should be giving up is the right to create your own game based on the IP of WotC, that the OGL allowed; but not your right to create anything else for the game just because WotC wants to circumvent your rights to those public domain terms.
How much actual control of those public domain terms do you give up? What rights do you retain for other things in regards to those public domain terms?
What you have below is a little part of that, but other than the OGL, are you giving up your rights to use those public domain terms in other things just because you have signed this GSL?
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The only thing stopping me signing it is the "trash all your OGL stuff" clause. Can't afford to do that.
That just makes me want to kick someone in the nuts! You are rightfully so to be offended by that section because it is a slap in the face not only to publishers, but consumers as well.
All hail WotC gods of all gaming and bow to their whims. :rolleyes:
It just makes me want to listen to the convention meeting where someone recorded the closed session between WotC and 3PP discussing the OGL/STL and what was coming and the things Bill S. said and got mad at the 3PP because they didn't just blindly accept WotC telling them what to think.
I don't recall a pleasant thing said on either side from that meeting, but seemed everyone left unhappy. Wish I knew if I still had that or where to find it again!
And I refuse to give control of the English language to WotC, or conform to their ideals of what my IP should be. They control their IP, not mine. They are asking WAY too much for those names and things that are in public domain.
They can ask for whatever they want. If you don't like it, don't use the GSL. And it's not that they're asserting some right over public domain terms, as you seem to think. It's just a term of the contract: if you use the contract, you agree to use these terms to mean these specific things, and nothing else, in the product covered by the GSL.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
What you should be giving up is the right to create your own game based on the IP of WotC, that the OGL allowed; but not your right to create anything else for the game just because WotC wants to circumvent your rights to those public domain terms.
You're free to use those terms any way you like, as long as it's not a product published under the GSL. No rights are being taken away.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
What you have below is a little part of that, but other than the OGL, are you giving up your rights to use those public domain terms in other things just because you have signed this GSL?
Um, no. Like I said they are not asserting rights over terms like "human". They are requiring you to use the terms in a specific way in a product if you want to use the GSL. That is all.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
That just makes me want to kick someone in the nuts! You are rightfully so to be offended by that section because it is a slap in the face not only to publishers, but consumers as well.
At least you're thinking about it rationally. Give us a break.
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Originally Posted by justanobody
All hail WotC gods of all gaming and bow to their whims. :rolleyes:
Yes, they really should be letting us use their trademark without us having to give them anything. Really, what are they thinking?
I could not create a fan product with the D&D logo because it tells me what I have to use as definitions for public domain terms. That is where the thing falls flat.
You couldn't do that anyway. The logo is a trademark.
And I refuse to give control of the English language to WotC, or conform to their ideals of what my IP should be. They control their IP, not mine. They are asking WAY too much for those names and things that are in public domain.
OK, so basically someone ha ssomehting for sale, and you think the price is too high?
That's fine. Happens every day. Just don't take them up on the offer.
But the anger at them daring to try to sell something to you at a price you don't want to pay? That's not justified. Do you wander round shops ranting at them because some things have less value value to you than the price they're asking?
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That just makes me want to kick someone in the nuts! You are rightfully so to be offended by that section because it is a slap in the face not only to publishers, but consumers as well.
I'm not offended by it. I'm running a business. The cost of that product (the D&D logo) is currently too high for me. I have no business being offended.
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All hail WotC gods of all gaming and bow to their whims. :rolleyes:
That sarcasm is not necessary. It's their IP. They can attach whatever price to it they like. You can agree to pay the price or not, depending whether you think it's a good deal.
It's like buying a car. I, at present, feel the car is too expensive; so I'm keeping my old one. If they reduce the price, I might buy it.
I'm not mad at the car company for not giving me a free car, though.
__________________
War of the Burning Sky A 12-part 4E campaign saga, taking characters from 1st-30th level!
War is coming. Are you ready?
But don't advertise one car, give its price as guaranteed, then when I get there jack it up 20%. Thee is a term or two for that I think.
Huh? What are you talking about? Who's done what, now?
Did they, like, call you up, tell you the GSL said one thing, forced you to drive all the way to Seattle to sign it, only to find it said another?
You really need to think about this.
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The problem is they are giving you a free car, but telling you you can only drive it on the interstate. So how do you get it home?
So? It's a free car. Take it and don't drive it on whatever an insterstate is, or don't take it. They don't owe you a free car. There's nothing wrong with someone offering you a free car that has somehting wrong with it.
Man, remind me never to buy you a beer! I couldn't live with the recriminations afterwards!
__________________
War of the Burning Sky A 12-part 4E campaign saga, taking characters from 1st-30th level!
War is coming. Are you ready?
The problem is they are giving you a free car, but telling you you can only drive it on the interstate. So how do you get it home?
They aren't giving you anything. They are saying that IF you want a free car, you can only drive on the interstate. It's still up to you if you want to buy that free BMW or go buy a use Ford elsewhere.
You still have a choice. What's the problem, aside from the fact that some people feel they should get the free BMW and be able to do whatever they want with it?
You still have a choice. What's the problem, aside from the fact that some people feel they should get the free BMW and be able to do whatever they want with it?
That is the problem. People have been spoiled by the OGL, and they want their cake and being able to eat it too.
But, I will admit it was up near post fifty-sumthin-r-other, and my short term thread memory is about 30 posts or so. 
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