General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
For the record, you actually CAN contract to completely and totally give up, in every possible context, the ability to use things which are part of the public domain.
I could write a contract in which I gave you $100 in exchange for you promising to never, ever use the word "sardine" again. Not in writing, not in published work, not verbally, not ever. That word would be denied to you, permanently, forever. And I could put in that contract that, if you DO use the word "sardine," you have to, I dunno, give me back the $100 plus some extra penalty.
That would be legal. Because, see, you don't have to take the $100.
Not that WOTC is doing this or anything. But I felt I should add this for the record- if they WERE doing this, it would be legal. I gave you a promise ($100), you gave me a promise (never to utter "sardine"), we have a contract.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,542
Whether people agree that the current GSL is good or bad, or whether people agree on percieved entitlement or not because of the OGL, the idea of a deadline demand to WoTC is just a silly, futile, and empty gesture.
This would be like telling WoTC back when 4E was just coming out, that a June release just wasn't acceptable, and then demanded an April release or else. Or else what!? You can't demand or coerce when you have absolutely NO LEVERAGE. All that making a demand like this is going to do is piss off some people at WoTC, and probably the very people that are on the side of releasing a new GSL as soon as possible. There are some people at WoTC that are trying to do this the right way, and release a GSL that works both for WoTC and 3pp purposes. Making unrealistic and unenforcable demands, at best resolves nothing, at worst slows things down even more. I believe Scott is doing everything he can to make this happen. Leave the man alone and let him work. The more he has to deal with silliness like this, the longer it will probably take.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
For the record, you actually CAN contract to completely and totally give up, in every possible context, the ability to use things which are part of the public domain.
I could write a contract in which I gave you $100 in exchange for you promising to never, ever use the word "sardine" again. Not in writing, not in published work, not verbally, not ever. That word would be denied to you, permanently, forever. And I could put in that contract that, if you DO use the word "sardine," you have to, I dunno, give me back the $100 plus some extra penalty.
That would be legal. Because, see, you don't have to take the $100.
Not that WOTC is doing this or anything. But I felt I should add this for the record- if they WERE doing this, it would be legal. I gave you a promise ($100), you gave me a promise (never to utter "sardine"), we have a contract.
I doupt this is legal. Freedom of speech and all that. I want to believe you can't contract people to give up their fundamental rights.
I doupt this is legal. Freedom of speech and all that. I want to believe you can't contract people to give up their fundamental rights.
Freedom of speech doesn't enter into it. We're talking about people willingly giving up a right in return for something, not having your rights taken away without recompense. There's rather a large difference there.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
I doupt this is legal. Freedom of speech and all that. I want to believe you can't contract people to give up their fundamental rights.
You can. Your "Freedom of Speech" is related to the government not abridging your right to speak; it has nothing to do with you voluntarily agreeing not to speak.
For example - if you appear in a stage show, your contract will not aloow you to suddenly say, halfway through "I want a pie!" That does not infringe on your freedom of speech; it is a private agreement between you and the production company whereby you agree to say/not say things, in exchange for money.
Or, more famously, you can't shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. You can't use a trademarked term in publicity without permission. There are LOTS of limits on what you can say.
Freedom of Speech - you Americans should really understand your own rights; the right is to not have your goverment make laws that restrict your freedom of speech. It has nothing to do with private agreements.
You don't have freedom of speech here on EN World, for example. You agreed, when signing up, that that was the case. EN World is not [your] government, so you can make that agreement with the site.
That is the problem. People have been spoiled by the OGL, and they want their cake and being able to eat it too.
No you are quite wrong. For decades I have been waiting for osmething that would allow me to do this:
-Use the logo
-Include any name of something within the game
-create anything I want to add to it to interact with (skill, NWP, feat, item, town, new creature)
That is it. I don't want to make a new game, just be able to make the things I would use and a chance to share it with other people as a fan, and recoup some[all] of the cost to physically produce it.
The logo only states that it was made to be used with a specific game. Oddly enough the game I like, not every Tom, Harry, and Dick RPG out there.
That means needing to be able to specifically make my own elf description, background, history, physiology, etc; same as orc, goblin, etc from the public domain; and be able to call then just an ELF, ORC, GOBLIN. etc.
OGL went too far and that is how they ended up with other people able to print the SRD completely and sell it as a new game.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morrus
. . . Or, more famously, you can't shout "Fire!" in a crowded theatre. . .
100% true. This is illegal. At best you can be charged with Reckless Endangerment, at worst, if someone is hurt or worse, add on a charge (or charges) of Assault or Manslaugther.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
No you are quite wrong. For decades I have been waiting for osmething that would allow me to do this:
-Use the logo
-Include any name of something within the game
-create anything I want to add to it to interact with (skill, NWP, feat, item, town, new creature)
And why should WotC give you that? What do you offer in exchange?
For them, the value they want is keeping those defined terms defined. You, clearly, are not prepared to pay that. What are you prepared to pay?
The question the is: is it worth it to WotC to let people loose with their brand name in exchange for the price you suggest.
You're just haggling here over a trade. It's only a question of determining the price; and that price is not going to be zero.
Freedom of Speech - you Americans should really understand your own rights; the right is to not have your goverment make laws that restrict your freedom of speech. It has nothing to do with private agreements.
But I am not american
So could you legally make a contract with somebody physically abusing him? asking him not to eat? telling him what to vote in the elections?
Asking to understand how law works (I guess in Anglo-saxon (anglican?) states)
Look, slavery is illegal, right? Fundamental rights, unconstitutional, and all that? And yet you can contract to oblige yourself to have to work for someone.
Being forced to attend religious services you don't agree with is illegal, right? Same with being forced to swear belief in a religious you don't believe in? Another fundamental right, unconstitutional, etc? And yet you can contract to be an organist in a church, or even a minister, obliging you to attend that church and swear the religious oaths it demands.
Fundamental rights are things that no one can MAKE you give up. You can CHOOSE to give them up all you want!* Contracts are things you enter into voluntarily with other private citizens. They are not, generally speaking, compulsion. They don't even force you to follow them- you're allowed to breach a contract! Sometimes the law even encourages you to breach a contract! You just might have to pay a fee as a result of that choice.
*Ok, not ALL you want. There are a few exceptions, such as genuinely exploitive situations (company towns, etc). Trust me, these don't apply here.
Look, slavery is illegal, right? Fundamental rights, unconstitutional, and all that? And yet you can contract to oblige yourself to have to work for someone.
Being forced to attend religious services you don't agree with is illegal, right? Same with being forced to swear belief in a religious you don't believe in? Another fundamental right, unconstitutional, etc? And yet you can contract to be an organist in a church, or even a minister, obliging you to attend that church and swear the religious oaths it demands.
Fundamental rights are things that no one can MAKE you give up. You can CHOOSE to give them up all you want!* Contracts are things you enter into voluntarily with other private citizens. They are not, generally speaking, compulsion. They don't even force you to follow them- you're allowed to breach a contract! Sometimes the law even encourages you to breach a contract! You just might have to pay a fee as a result of that choice.
*Ok, not ALL you want. There are a few exceptions, such as genuinely exploitive situations (company towns, etc). Trust me, these don't apply here.
But there have to be some limitations. Can you contract people to work for 120 hours a week for example? Or without offering certain types of insurances? There are usually certain types of contracts regarding labor/work for example. Not everything is legal. Or is it not like this in USA?
So could you legally make a contract with somebody physically abusing him?
No, but assault is a crime. You can't contract a crime. Not saying something is not a crime.
The important thing, in the context of this conversation, is that the GSL terms are legal (even if some people think they shouldn't be).
What you need to distinguish betwen is a voluntary agreement (a contract) and a crime (an illegal act), and not get the terms confused. A contract is not "illegal" unless it incoudes a criminal act. Now it may prove to be unenforceable, but that's just a practical issue.
__________________
Last edited by Morrus; 29th November 2008 at 01:07 AM..
I think JackSmithIV is reminding you that you seem to have forgotten this new awesome PDF-publisher called One Bad Egg!
That's so brutal...
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsclaw227
Sadly, I have yet to look into the Poison Ivy products yet...
It's ok, we'll be around!
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
No you are quite wrong. For decades I have been waiting for osmething that would allow me to do this:
-Use the logo
-Include any name of something within the game
-create anything I want to add to it to interact with (skill, NWP, feat, item, town, new creature)
First of all, we basically can. I certainly don't want to speak on behalf of all publishers on this matter, I myself being a very new face to the game, but the improvements I personally seek to the GSL (mostly a +6 Enhancements bonus to the SRD) are not things I need to create any of the essential game elements you mentioned. I can create all of those things as long as I do not infringe upon any intellectual properties that Wizards of the Coast has completely rightfully decided to withhold (for example, I can't write about the Feywild, because they own that idea and want to capitalize on the concept themselves).
The changes I want to the SRD are mostly updates. Currently, I'm pretty sure that I can't use any of the templates for making mounts, vehicles, alchemical items and other such things from the Adventurers Vault. I can't elaborate on any of the new classes, such as new powers or paragon paths for Swordmage or Dark Pact warlocks, etc... but these are things that I am in no way entitled to. On the contrary, I feel grateful that Wizards has allowed me use of the IP in this way, and they've never made any sort of promise either way.
But then again, I'm just a cool-aid drinker, right?
And why should WotC give you that? What do you offer in exchange?
For them, the value they want is keeping those defined terms defined. You, clearly, are not prepared to pay that. What are you prepared to pay?
The question the is: is it worth it to WotC to let people loose with their brand name in exchange for the price you suggest.
You're just haggling here over a trade. It's only a question of determining the price; and that price is not going to be zero.
Because it could generate more sales of their core products?
I offer free advertising of their products via mine. But the whole advertising has shifted now and people have to pay to have a product in their programs now instead of the way it used to be where the product owner had to pay to GET into the programs...
What would WotC have to lose?
Only their chance to make the exact same product.
As it stands now they can kill the GSL to steal the name from someone's new monster as it is.
What the hell do I owe WotC anyway? I have said it before, and will say it again. I don't care about WotC. I owe them nothing, they have never done a thing for me.
I was one of the many people that kept TSR hanging on by their teeth to not go into bankruptcy and foreclosure that allowed WotC to buy them and make D&D afterwards, and even bought WotC/TSR products. I think they owe me!
God forbid they save on marketing the PHB or DMG because I was able to make something that caused people to need to buy it and WotC didn't have to shell out any extra money for that advertising. How much do TV commercials cost these days? Not just the 30 seconds of time, but production as well.
So what I am offering is less marketing costs and accounts payable for WotC, with an increase in accounts receivable and sales due to the increased interest in the product for D&D that only they can make and sell.
So could you legally make a contract with somebody physically abusing him?
Depends on your definition of abuse.
For instance, if I walk into a public place and smack a strange woman on the bottom, that's assault.
However, if I have an acquaintance who wants to be smacked on the bottom with a cane, and she gives me permission, than I can do so.
The issue is consent.
On the topic of legally binding stipulations, you can have a man whose job in a self defense class is to be kneed in the groin, or whatever unpleasant things that self-defense instructor might have the class do. That is his job. If it's in his contract that he cannot sue for injury done to him, and he gets beaten up, well that's his fault for signing that contract.
What the hell do I owe WotC anyway? I have said it before, and will say it again. I don't care about WotC. I owe them nothing, they have never done a thing for me.
You don't owe them anything, unless you want to use their IP (trademark), which you would otherwise not be able to do. In that case, they'll want something in return.
The question is, why do you think they owe you something? You haven't done anything for them either.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Whether people agree that the current GSL is good or bad, or whether people agree on percieved entitlement or not because of the OGL, the idea of a deadline demand to WoTC is just a silly, futile, and empty gesture.
Exactly. Silly, futile, empty, and potentially damaging.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
Because it could generate more sales of their core products?
I offer free advertising of their products via mine. But the whole advertising has shifted now and people have to pay to have a product in their programs now instead of the way it used to be where the product owner had to pay to GET into the programs...
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