General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
So I was playing Dead Space last night for a bit, and I died. (Booo.)
The game as lots of (all?) computer games do started from the last point I saved at. It wasn't a far point behind where I died, so I liked my ego wounds and moved on...
But then it made me think...
I'm pretty used to that idea in computer games. If I die, I don't end up having to restart from the very begining, or make a new guy, or choose some other path in the adventure. I just restart from the last save point and move on. I don't think twice about it. I don't think I ever really thought twice about it in the very first few computer games that had save points in them. I just restarted, this time with a renewed energy to beat the jerk that killed me...
But in a Pen and Paper game, this idea just seems wrong. I died... There's no restarting the adventure from the last "save" point... You make a new guy, or you end up "failing" at the adventure and suffering the consequences.
What is it about P&P games that causes this difference?
is it the DM aspect?
Do you accept the "save point" more in a computer game because the computer can't come up with "consequences" on the fly? Or because the computer can't handle another adventurer joining the game, and taking on a "new" adventure based on the old?
Or is it something else?
Does anyone out there use an idea like "save points" in their P&P D&D game?
But for those who do, my guess is it's the difference between single-player and multiplayer. 5 players don't want to go through the same stuff because you died. You yourself might find that okay instead of being dead.
__________________ ADVANCED DUNGEONS &DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. (1E DMG p. 9)
So in any computer game you've played when you die you just start from the begining?
Quote:
But for those who do, my guess is it's the difference between single-player and multiplayer. 5 players don't want to go through the same stuff because you died. You yourself might find that okay instead of being dead.
Well I think I'd have to equate death in a Computer game with a TPK in a P&P game.
I accept save points in computer/video games because it's a genre convention. Well, it's more than that, it's part of how the whole experience is structured. Software can't respond to play in a creative manner. On the other hand, games with save points can pull more moments of pure surprise on players, that is, they can use challenges that really aren't meant to be solved the first life through. Part of the fun of software games is really just gussied-up trial-and-error. Die and restart until you solve the challenge.
In the more fiction-like world of the PnP game, I prefer other death-mitigating mechanics, and consequences for failure that take the narrative in new and unexpected directions, rather than just taking another crack at the same challenge that defeated you.
Quote:
Does anyone out there use an idea like "save points" in their P&P D&D game?
Not me.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
Heh. There are actually a few computer games without the option to save (unless you are cheating). Most MMORPGs (though dying there usually isn't the end), the old Wizardry games, Hack/Angband, Diablo 2 Hardcore, and so on. Those also have a certain appeal.
Though I do use the save game function, when it is available, I usually only keep a single save game to limit the extent of it.
Anyways, it really breaks the suspension of disbelief to do something like that in a Pen & Paper game.
Bye
Thanee
__________________
“In our world, immortality is not for the living. The legend lives on!”
In Memoriam Dave Arneson († April 7th, 2009) & Gary Gygax († March 4th, 2008).
Wondering what the Dungeon Tiles are like? Take a look here (up to DU5 Sinister Woods).
Delta must have the patience of a saint or the reflexes of an extremely coordinated teenager!
Or he is like me and simply does not play video games because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it from beginning to end without dying.
That is the biggest reason I liked "Knights of the Old Republic", I made it from beginning to end with only 6 tries. The 6th time really ticked me off, though. I was at the very end, fighting all those robots, and didn't figure out how to beat the scenario until after I died. So I had to play for another 20 hours to get back to that point with a new character, but I won that battle and quickly figured out how to win the last battle without dying. It came close though, fortunately I had lots of shields and lots of healing.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
Does anyone out there use an idea like "save points" in their P&P D&D game?
I'm going to be using "save points" in a game I'll run over the holidays. However, there are specific reasons why I'm doing so. In my regular games, I'd never consider it.
I'm converting the Myriador 3.5 conversion of Deathtrap Dungeon to 4E, and running it for my group (and my old DM who'll be visiting from Toronto) in one or two sessions over the holidays. I'm also going through my copy of Deathtrap Dungeon and adding back in stuff the module skipped over.
It's a one-shot deal and we're using pregen characters. The reasons I'm using save points are:
1. There is no continuity to worry about.
2. It's our first 4E game, and we want to try out the game as much as possible. So if things go to crap, I think it's better to just keep going rather than giving up or starting from the beginning and rehashing.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
I think the main difference is with a PC game you are playing the exact same thing; give or take, some games mix it up a bit with each play through but not much. Re-doing the same thing is really dull. Whereas with a DnD game with a death, and by this I mean TPK, which is the equiv to character death in a SP game, we always start something almost entirely new...i.e. we go on to a new 'game': in a comp game analogy we dump Dead Space (I was getting bored of all those corridors anyway) and start playing Fallout 3!
With a single player dying then PC games do it in the same way. I played Left 4 Dead last night with 4 player co-op. When one of the 'PCs' died we rescued him later...he showed up as a 'rescue survivor'. Admittedly it was the exact same guy who got slotted a few minutes ago and in DnD that would only happen with a bit of magic instead of a new PC entire
Or he is like me and simply does not play video games because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it from beginning to end without dying.
Most games these days are designed that way, yes.
Quote:
So I had to play for another 20 hours to get back to that point with a new character, but I won that battle and quickly figured out how to win the last battle without dying.
You played through the entire game again after dying near the end? You, sir, have the patience of a saint. If games didn't have save mechanics, I wouldn't play them (I'd get too bored w/all the backtracking/redoing).
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
What is it about P&P games that causes this difference?
I suspect it is the expectation of the player.
I would expect that for most computer game players, the primary motivation is playing the game. The story behind the game, and the playing of the role, are secondary in comparison to the pushing of buttons and the working of strategies.
In a tabletop of live action game, the playing of the game is still there, but the playing of the role, and the development of the story, are likely much higher priorities. Except in some very specific circumstances, save points pretty much trash that.
In addition, your typical computer game is inflexible. If you don't get through its challenges, you are well and truly stuck. There's nothing else the program can do for you. The same is not typically true of P&P RPGs. In GNS terms - the computer game is so strongly "gamist" that the save mechanic makes sense as a feature for the player. P&P RPGS are more "narrativist", such that the mechanism would not make sense.
But in a Pen and Paper game, this idea just seems wrong. I died... There's no restarting the adventure from the last "save" point... You make a new guy, or you end up "failing" at the adventure and suffering the consequences.
Play more Paranoia.
__________________ The Pbartender
"I don't believe it. There she goes again! She's tidied up, and I can't find anything! All my tubes and wires and careful notes and antiquated notions..." - Thomas Dolby
You played through the entire game again after dying near the end? You, sir, have the patience of a saint. If games didn't have save mechanics, I wouldn't play them (I'd get too bored w/all the backtracking/redoing).
Actually I spent a day or two determined not to play the game ever again. Then I calmed down and decided to do it since I enjoyed just "getting there" well enough to do it again.
Then I played it again as Dark Side. Took me only 3 tries that time. Still, I preferred the Light side play.
__________________ It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. NEVER hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, IF it goes against the obvious intent of the game. As you hew the line with respect to conformity to major systems and uniformity of play in general, also be certain the game is mastered by you and not by your players. Within the broad parameters give in the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Volumes, YOU are creator and final arbiter. By ordering things as they should be, the game as a WHOLE first, your CAMPAIGN next, and your participants thereafter, you will be playing Advanced Dungeons and Dragons as it was meant to be. May you find as much pleasure in so doing as the rest of us do.
I played a short scenario (not dnd) at a con once where the gimick was stolen from groundhog day, so we restarted the day whenever we were killed (by aliens, werewolfs, cops etc.) or after 24 hours.
It was actually a traveller scenario (which we didn't know until afterwards), where we were playing AI's caught in an interactive "game", devised by the companys marketing department.
It was actually kinda cool. And also a slightly silly game. I probably wouldn't recommend it for a campaign
__________________ "hp evaluate the degree of script immunity of a character" - Ti-Bob
Crazy synchronicity, in my FFZ notes today I was just writing up how to translate the "Save Point" idea into PnP play. Basic points:
"Save Point" = Home Base: That inn your characters sleep at, or that temple where you can go to get raised by the friendly priest: these are "save points." In FFZ, you go here to switch party members, or heal your wounds, or otherwise be revitalized. In this way, you can say that "save points" already exist: as long as one person makes it out of the dungeon alive, the rest of the party can be resurrected.
Metagame: Save Points preserve continuity of characters: FFZ is a gloriously narrative game in most respects, so it is important to have characters who are basically "immune to death." Save points enable that.
But...they don't turn back the clock...: Unlike in a CRPG, FFZ's "save points" don't undo the last hour or so of gameplay you've done. Your characters are alive, and they have all the knoweldge that they gained since their last visit to this place. Likewise, the enemy that killed you may have gained knowledge about you: he can respond, change tactics, move away entirely, send assassins, or otherwise react to what you just did.
Verisimilitude: Exclusivity and High Magic: FFZ's "Save Points" have a role in the world. Most common people can't afford to bother with them (and have little use for them, since their lives aren't particularly dangerous). Thus, there isn't a problem with random bakers being effectively immortal.
Trump Cards: In order to keep assassination plots and the like relevant, there has to be a few things that bypass Save Points, though they can be unabashedly narrative in structure:
#1: Special "Death" effects that truly kill the victims; only people who are not linked to a Save Point can generate these effects (leaves a pool of dangerous assassins).
#2: Necromancy. Anything that animates the undead strips out your soul (Necromancers are creepy)
#3: Fate. When your time is up, it is up, and nothing can stop it.
#4: Choice. You can choose to sacrifice your life for a greater cause. You can't be raised after this.
#5: Special areas called "Jagd" that bypass this resurrection.
0 HP is KO, not Death: It's HARD to die in FFZ. You don't just die from hit point loss (though you may fail).
The Save Point can be Threatened: If your enemies break your crystal, you can't be raised. You need to make sure your Save Point is secure, and that usually means locating it far away from the enemy stronghold.
Most D&D games have fairly easy resurrection, especially at higher levels, so dealing with a "save point" isn't really different than dealing with a special auto-resurrection at a given location. It's not a dramatically different mechanic.
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (TDY in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
Posts: 1,546
I think it's as simple as: computer games in-world and story options are limited by programming - versus - PnP game options are virtually infinite. Because options other than resets can't be easily done, or done at all, in a video game, we accept it easily. Because other options can be done in a PnP game, we expect it.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
"Don't Just Do It, Just Do It Right!"
"Right, without Reason, is unmitigated Foolishness."
"If you make a mistake, Acknowledge It, then make it Right."
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
