Go Back   EN World D&D / RPG News > General RPG Forums > General RPG Discussion

General RPG Discussion Discussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.

 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27th November 2008, 10:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Baron Opal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,248
Baron Opal Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Passports, please!

How did ancient cultures prove citizenship? There is a passage in the Bible where Paul of Tarsus claims Roman citizenship for protection. How was that verified? Was there a passport or records somewhere? Or could you fake it if you were confident and knew Latin particularly well?

I know there are / were some African tribes that carried credit card sized masks in little pouches as identification. My dad had a few of those. I can't think of anything in history, in the West, where people had citizenship papers before the French Revolution. Even then, I have to wonder where the masses would get them from.
__________________
"People need vision.
Sometimes you just have to add spices without a recipie."
- My wonderful wife.
Baron Opal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2008, 10:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
Pixel Pusher
 
frankthedm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,166
frankthedm Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Appearance was the big one. Speaking accent was another one. Round that out with how lying was considered much worse than in modern times. Of course if the governing body did not believe you or the folks backing your story up, you got dragged off and that was it for you.

Last edited by frankthedm; 27th November 2008 at 11:44 AM..
frankthedm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2008, 12:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Stereofm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 546
Stereofm Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Papers as such did not exist before the French revolution, but there were church registries in every village. If your identity was in doubt, you could be detained until a messenger could be sent to your birthplace to verify it. Well, if they thought that you were worth the bother, that is.

During this revolution, angry revolutionaries burned these registries, which led later to all cases of usurped identity. Depending on the case "of course I am noble and I own this land" or "of course not I am just a rich peasant, don't cut my head".

Nobles and highly educated did not really need papers, as money and rank talked for them. See how many French nobles exiled themselves during the French revolution.

On the other hand, every kind of special power, military order, or commission granted by the government was certified by a special letter, signed by whatever autority issued it, and backed with a seal.
__________________
PAIZO ! PAIZO ! PATHFINDER !!!!
Stereofm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2008, 02:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Stormborn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 2,325
Stormborn Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Opal View Post
How did ancient cultures prove citizenship? There is a passage in the Bible where Paul of Tarsus claims Roman citizenship for protection. How was that verified? Was there a passport or records somewhere? Or could you fake it if you were confident and knew Latin particularly well?
I don't believe it was verified. You have to remember that obtaining Roman citizenship was not that hard (and had NOTHING to do with speaking Latin BTW - Greek was what everyone spoke), granted to children of Roman citizens, children of a freedslave whose former master was a citizen, those who served as auxillery troops, and certain conquered peoples. It could be a reward for service to the Empire/Republic and it could be bought. Basically, given the rights of Roman citizens it was safer to assume that someone's claim was legitimate than have them later produce some kind of witness or testimony against you. Basically in the Empire everything was who you know, and if you had a known and respected citizen vouch for you that was likely all that was needed, provided you didn't have known and respected enemies.
__________________
Check out my (Scott Carter's) stuff here. or read my mostly RPG related Blog
Stormborn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2008, 10:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Andor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Enterprise, Florida
Posts: 2,778
Andor Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Send a message via AIM to Andor
Depends on where and when you were. In china at some times you would have to produce papers showing you had permission to be traveling. You would only get those papers once you had permission of course. At home you don't need id because everyone knows who you are.

That was probably a secondary function of all the traveling and visiting the upper classes did, simply meeting people and learning faces of the peerage.

Any representative would have papers signed by the authority granting the post. And you could always send a messenger to verfiy the papers. God help you if they turned out to be fake.

On a side note, when I did a stint guarding a secure facility the ideal from of identification was personal recognition. ID was a back up in case you didn't know the person.
__________________
-Andor

"Congratulations. You just invented 'negligent regicide.'" - Schlock Mercenary

Seeking a game in Florida.
Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th November 2008, 10:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Andor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Enterprise, Florida
Posts: 2,778
Andor Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Send a message via AIM to Andor
It's actually fairly tough to fake where you're from. Accents vary not only by location but by class and they can be hard to overcome. See My Fair Lady, or look up the term 'shibboleth'. While in the modern world we tend to disregard such things ethnicity is often visually obvious. Clothing styles, customs, common knowlege, all of these things vary with where you were raised. A number of spies in WWII were caught simply because americans and europeans have different table manners.

And in a fantasy world there are even more give aways. Race is the most obvious as in a Drow kingdom only Dark elves are likely to be acorded citizenship, even more civillized places might not accord full rights to half-orcs. Membership in some cults might be required for/or preclude citizenship and be magically or visually determinable. In a mageocracy anyone who can't cast prestidigitation may be sol.

Or 'papers' may instead mean entry into a magical registry which any guard can access with a simple cantrip. Enchanted crystals bearing an image of the user. Even straight up divination may be used. ("Do you know who I am?" 'No, let me cast these runes.')
__________________
-Andor

"Congratulations. You just invented 'negligent regicide.'" - Schlock Mercenary

Seeking a game in Florida.
Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 12:56 AM   #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
taliesin15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 568
taliesin15 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Another aspect is some cultures, ancient and otherwise, were simply freer about such things, to the point where there were no tolls to pay passing through gates, sometimes not even a standard military presence. IMC, I have several cultures or simply small settlements where there's essentially no government at all and most walk around well armed.

This does raise the question of dialects, and I wonder how many DMs delineate specific regional dialects of the Common (and other) tongue. And even beyond that, there being in some places the Court version of the language in question.

I understand that in many cultures in Europe and elsewhere one identified oneself by being able to count off one's heritage, be able to list one's forefathers (or mothers in the case of matriarchal societies).
__________________
Success is a rare paint...It hides all the ugliness. John Suckling (1609-1642)
taliesin15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 01:59 AM   #8 (permalink)
Wik
Registered User
 
Wik's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
Posts: 3,903
Wik Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormborn View Post
I don't believe it was verified. You have to remember that obtaining Roman citizenship was not that hard (and had NOTHING to do with speaking Latin BTW - Greek was what everyone spoke),
NOt totally correct. Greek was a very common language in the eastern empire, but Latin was the day to day language, and was the spoken language in much of the central empire (ie. Italy). If you wanted to deal with the roman officials ruling over your tribes, you had to learn latin - which could lead to many "barbaric"/latin creole dialects (such as, say, English*).

Sorry, I'm a linguistics nerd at times.

***

Onto the question at hand...

While identity was easy to fake, and people moved around from place to place all the time ("I'm a pilgrim! No, really, I am"), there were ways around this. Letters of Introduction were pretty common among the upper class (and the merchant class) - and they would be the precursor to modern day papers. Also, remember that in the ancient era, you could usually tell a traveller's station in life, simply by bearing and manner - if he looked like a soldier, he probably was. If he showed up in Egypt with a lot of money and said he was a rich nobleman from Jerusalem... he probably was (and if he wasn't, well, who cares?).

But if you were one of the unwashed masses? Well, no one really cared. You were a foreigner, treated like crap, and were more likely to wind up a slave or poor. But no one really cared if you were John A. Jackson or Jack Z. Johnson... why bother tracking a commoner?


(*Yeah, technically, English isn't a Creole language, but I believe it started as one)
__________________
Current Campaign: The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.

Check out my (non-gaming)blog!

Play By Posts

Sadly, currently on hiatus. I blame the government and the school system. No, really, I do.
Wik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 02:06 AM   #9 (permalink)
Admiral o' th' High Seas
 
Morrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Southampton, England
Posts: 15,907
Morrus Bugbear Strangler (Lvl 6)
I would imagine that the average person simply had no need of such papers - international travel, while it certainly existed in the Middle Ages or the times of the Roman Empire, weren't something that your average blacksmith or fishmonger did.

Sure, richer people did, or diplomatt, or military people. But most people would spend their entire life within 20 miles of their birthplace.
__________________
Morrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 04:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,542
justanobody Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Brands, tattoos, letters of marquee, the type of coin you carry, could sometimes be used to identify what allegiances you hold by having them.

What you looked like or wore are or were...nos till are, sometimes good indicators of where you are from.

There could be passports, or travel permits that must be presented when entering and leaving areas.

The important thing to remember was anyone of a country at war, or not a member of a country that is faithful to the one they meet may end up in slavery, and there travel arrangements are then made for them.
justanobody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 05:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
Set
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nashua, New Hampshire
Posts: 769
Set Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
There's the fun story of Shibboleth as well.

Definitely don't want to fail that particular 'citizenship test.'
Set is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2008, 12:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ydars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 658
Ydars Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
I think the term passport came from papers that people had to have to enter or leave a port during time of war. They were certainly in use in the 1400s as there is a reference to "letters of safe conduct" in a document from the time of Henry V in 1414 and in also in the play "Henry V"; "He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart! His passport shall be made and crowns for converse put into his pocket."

The earliest one we have from the UK is this from the reign of Charles I and here is the text of it.

CHARLES BY THE GRACE OF GOD, King of Great Britain, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith etc; To all our Mayors, Justices of the Peace, Bailifs, Customans (?), Comptrollers, Searchers; And more particularly to our Admirals, Vice-Admirals, Captains of the Forts Ships and our other Ministers and Officers both at land and Sea whom it doth or may concerne Greeting. Whereas wee have given and by these presents doe grant leave and license to our Trustie and Wellbeloved Servant Captain William Bradshagh Esqre one of the gentlemen of our Privie Chamber to transport himself and his familie into the parts beyond the Seas. Wee doe therefore will and require you and every of you to suffer and sayd Captain in Bradshagh quietly to passe by you and to embarque himself together with his Wife Margaret Bradshagh two Mayds and two men Servants with their trunks of apparells and other necessaries not prohibited at any of our ports; giving them rather all furtherance and assistance for their safe and speedie passage than any trouble lett and molestation. And hereof you may not faile as you to render our pleasure and this shall be as well unto you and every one of you as unto the said Captain Bradshagh sufficient warrent on this behalf. Given under our Signet at our palace of Westminster the Eighteenth of June in the Seventeenth year of our reign - 1641."

There are also references in the bible to Moses giving Abraham such a safe conduct letter as well.
__________________
I don't know half of you, half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve!
Ydars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
haakon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kendall Keep, Bissel
Posts: 1,539
haakon1 has disabled Experience Points
Quote:
Originally Posted by taliesin15 View Post
This does raise the question of dialects, and I wonder how many DMs delineate specific regional dialects of the Common (and other) tongue.
I do a little bit of dialect difference in my Greyhawk campaign.

Basically, I assume people know by accent what group one is generally from, across a broad region and whether people are from "around here" or not.

There are also racial/ethnic differences in Greyhawk, and my campaign is set in a border region where Baklunish ethnicity/language is on one side, Flannae on another, and "Common" in the country the PC's serve.

As for passports and citizenship, I don't worry about it at all. Even which country owns a particular village is often up for grabs in a border region, and some areas are beyond any rule, IMC.

But I did have the PC's once get a letter from the ruler letting them quarter in the village they were adventuring near -- basically, the inn had to put them up for free, as part of the village's feudal dues.

Last edited by haakon1; 1st December 2008 at 07:49 AM..
haakon1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 05:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
taliesin15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 568
taliesin15 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
great post Ydars

as to Haakon's thoughts on dialects, I basically agree with this--I work with the assumption that most people have never travelled more than 50 miles from their home--so you'll definitely have accent differences noticeable between say villages 100 miles away from each other--but further apart? That's where I tend to say the dialects are different enough that people are speaking another language within Common (or my version of quasi-Gaelic, etc)...

I do think that learning regional accents and dialects really is like learning another language--I've never bothered to learn the local dialect of English whereever I've lived accurately--my version of English is a hodgepodge mixed with what television anchors use, therefore people who've lived here in Central Texas all their lives know that I'm not from around here, are ya boy?
__________________
Success is a rare paint...It hides all the ugliness. John Suckling (1609-1642)
taliesin15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 05:45 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ydars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Birmingham UK
Posts: 658
Ydars Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Why thank-you Master Taliesin! I am glad to have amused or informed you (albeit by chance most probably).

You approval is particularly welcome as I named my daughter after Taliesin; her name is Tallis and she is 18 this week!
__________________
I don't know half of you, half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve!
Ydars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2008, 01:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 67
DrSkull Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
There was a census of Roman Citizens every 5 years, where each citizen was counted, assigned to an electoral tribe (if he didn't have one), and had his property assessed for voting purposes.

Lists of citizens were kept by the censors, and could be referred to.

Roman citizenship was RELATIVELY easy to get (compared to citizenship in most ancient city-states) but was still a prize that some people thought worth serving in the army for 25 years to get.

When a person was granted Roman citizenship through direct government action, such as army discharge, he was given a "diploma", a folded-over durable document, as proof.

Paul claimed citizenship, because a provincial governor could not beat or execute a citizen and must needs send him to Rome to be dealt with. So, they would have been prepared to check this sort of thing lest every single criminal who was brought before them would claim Roman citizen to avoid immediate punishment.

If the citizen was obviously an Italian, they wouldn't need to check real hard. If he claimed citizenship from some other source, he would either produce a diploma, or offer proof by reference to witnesses or the census.
DrSkull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2008, 03:53 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
haakon1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kendall Keep, Bissel
Posts: 1,539
haakon1 has disabled Experience Points
Quote:
Originally Posted by taliesin15 View Post
as to Haakon's thoughts on dialects, I basically agree with this--I work with the assumption that most people have never travelled more than 50 miles from their home--so you'll definitely have accent differences noticeable between say villages 100 miles away from each other--but further apart? That's where I tend to say the dialects are different enough that people are speaking another language within Common (or my version of quasi-Gaelic, etc)...
Historically, this approach to accents and languages is accurate. Languages like "French" were not really standardized until early modern times, when languages like Langue d'Oc were blended into the language of Paris, and languages like Breton and Alsatian were essentially stamped out. A lot of that process had to do with mass conscription to armies, and mass literacy.

Same process in Spain with Castillian becoming Spanish, but never quite surpressing Catalan and Basque.

And in Africa, during colonization in the late 19th century, dialects varied from village to village, and it's the missionaries who decided on where one language group started and another ended, as I understand it.

How to square all that gritty history with a campaign where Common exists? I think about Common as being the language of an old Empire (in Greyhawk, the Great Kingdom) and of educated people in other areas (much like how French was used by the nobility in medieval England and 19th century Russia). And to that it's use a lingua franca (common language of trade), and it begins to make sense.

Think of Common as English now, French in the past, or Latin, if you prefer . . .
haakon1 is offline   Reply With Quote


Bookmarks

Tags
passports, please!

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


And yet another word from our sponsors
Visit Our Sponsors
Visit Our Sponsors... Again
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:05 AM.


Site Contents © 2008 ENWorld
PHP Ajax Multimedia Web Framework © 2008 Digital Media Graphix
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0

"Vault Data" powered by VaultWiki v2.5.1.
Copyright © 2008 - 2009, Cracked Egg Studios.