General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I've been DMing off and on since 2e and have really enjoyed DMing 4e. However, I feel like I'm turning people off of 4e due to my tendency to stick strictly to the rules when running pre-made modules. Often times the encounters end up being much too tough and people end up dieing or getting severely beat down. Most of the people I play with have been playing various editions of D&D for a long time, but that experience doesn't seem to be translating to success in 4e.
So, can I get some general advice on how to recognize when people are not having fun due to difficulty and how to correct the situation? Also, 4e specific advice would be appreciated too.
1) How many PCs do you have?
2) What is the role/class makeup of your party?
3) Are the PCs using their abilities to aid one another/in a tactical manner?
4) Do they have a strong grasp of 4e rules?
It's very, very possible that the problem is in one of the above.
A caveat should be made for KotS's Irontooth encounter. That has lead to many TPKs, it seems.
The only other cause, if the PCs are playing straight, and you're running the module straight, is cold dice on their part or very hot dice on yours.
Because honestly, I've yet to even kill a PC. Only twice now have Pcs even hit negative HP in my game.
1) How many PCs do you have?
2) What is the role/class makeup of your party?
3) Are the PCs using their abilities to aid one another/in a tactical manner?
It's very, very possible that the problem is in one of the above.
A caveat should be made for KotS's Irontooth encounter. That has lead to many TPKs, it seems.
The only other cause, if the PCs are playing straight, and you're running the module straight, is cold dice on their part or very hot dice on yours.
Because honestly, I've yet to even kill a PC. Only twice now have Pcs even hit negative HP in my game.
1&2: I have dmed for 3 groups, one group: warlock, cleric, swordmage (assault), ranger, and artificer. Another was warlock, fighter, rogue, paladin, mage, rogue. The third was paladin, warlord, wizard, rogue, fighter, ranger.
3: I don't think any of the groups have fully 'gotten' the new group strategies too well
And yeah, group 2 got through the irontooth encounter okay, but group 3 had a tpk.
I've played around 15 RPGA modules and while I've had some tough battles, I never felt like it was overwhelmingly hard.
I just get the feeling that while it is true they are new to the system, they shouldn't be having this much trouble. And if it is just because they are new to the system, then I need to learn how to make encounters easier somehow.
Also, I was told by one of our older members that they felt like even in 2e I made things more difficult than they should have been. In 2e I tried to run adventures 'by the book' as much as possible, too.
Another was warlock, fighter, rogue, paladin, mage, rogue
There's part of your problem right there. No healer, 3 strikers. Even if you have two defenders, still. Those rogues are in melee, and they are glass cannons; if they aren't getting in, stabbing and getting out, they are going to get hit, and hard. This is doubly true if the rogue runs out ahead of everyone, or gets surrounded.
Also, the third group had six characters and only one healer. He can only heal twice in an encounter, thus everyone must just rely on their second wind.
A caveat should be made for KotS's Irontooth encounter. That has lead to many TPKs, it seems.
I got 3 full TPKs* with Irontooth and almost a 4th. Irontooth is an evil DM's best friend.
*: because I'm not a big fan of character death, I had Irontooth capture the party and send them off to Shadowfell Keep to be used as sacrifices.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
I got 3 full TPKs* with Irontooth and almost a 4th. Irontooth is an evil DM's best friend.
To be fair, part of Irontooth's deadliness is that depending on how the PCs act (and the DM reacts), two encounters worth of monsters (inside and outside of the waterfall) might get combined. That is a recipe for disaster.
I personally think the modules are pretty brutal, if for nothing than just that they are a very long grind of encounters, rather than brief and tough.
To be fair, part of Irontooth's deadliness is that depending on how the PCs act (and the DM reacts), two encounters worth of monsters (inside and outside of the waterfall) might get combined. That is a recipe for disaster.
A very strange thread. It's easy. Stop killing your PCs. Modules don't DM, you dm. Else, there'd be no real reason to have a DM. IF you feel an encounter is too much for your party, or the way your party handles something, then its up to you to scale or increase to provide the appropriate challenge.
No edition or system has ever had a true monster to pc scale. DM'n is often like being a chef and your game is often like a dish. YOu're using a pregen module, but you still need to measure the ingredients upon what your guests like to eat. If i know that my guest is diabetic, then i replace the sugar with a sweet and healthy alternative.
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Dunno, maybe try giving them advices ingame, as whether it's a good idea to use certain ability or not (Dailies, for instance), also, keep reminding them about Action Points and Second Wind and such.
It's quite easy to get lost in the beginning and just rely on At-Wills to avoid confusion...
Once they get the grasp on the rules and mechanics/new concepts, you stop giving the advices, and let them decide for themselves.
First of all, ensure everyone understands how Second Wind works, and that a Heal check from an adjacent buddy can help someone who's in negative HP.
Second, tactics are fairly significant here. If your Fighter isn't using his mark, and locking very potent enemies down with his Combat Superiority/Challenge feature, then he's doing a bad job. If your Paladin isn't marking potent foes, and making it a hassle to attack the paladin and a hassle to Not attack the paladin, he's not doing a good job as a defender.
All the PCs rushing towards the monsters instead of thinking about their positioning a little can kill. Particularly for the strikers.
Choke points can kill.
Never mix two encounters worth of monsters together; that is deadly.
Not helping the rogue set up combat advantage-friendly circumstances doesn't help.
Third, since your parties seem to be strapped for leaders (in general), then I would say fewer, farther spaced apart encounters, with safe places to short rest.
If this sort of lethality persists, you might wish to reduce the number of monsters in an encounter, or reduce their levels.
Or not really grasping the importance of At-Wills, and thus just using basic attacks. Or blowing Encounter powers early on against weaker targets.
I often ask "Wait, you want to use your daily on that guy?"
Oh, here's another: Forgetting about your magical item daily powers.
For all the complaints about how 4e removed resource management from the game, there's an awful large amount of resource management to 4e, its just different from earlier games.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
Good points all around. So, it sounds like I need to give them more advice on tactics/party composition rather than assuming they'll just get it. Secondly, if they aren't getting it I need to recognize that and scale back the encounters until they start getting it.
As has been said, Irontooth is an encounter that has caused problems. If all of your kills have been in this encounter, I wouldn't start to worry just yet. Though as someone suggested, maybe instead of being dead, they wake up being sent somewhere for slavery (I recommend (spoiler) Thunderspire Labyrinth, due to the second adventure).
I think that you will also want to clearly communicate meta-game information like which creatures are "minions" and which creatures are "bloodied" to your players, while making sure to do so with some flair and narration to keep it interesting. Nothing sucks more than spending a daily on a minion, and its hard for the players of a tactically minded game to make these types of decisions without the necessary information, especially when they are getting used to the system.
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Good points all around. So, it sounds like I need to give them more advice on tactics/party composition rather than assuming they'll just get it. Secondly, if they aren't getting it I need to recognize that and scale back the encounters until they start getting it.
Yeah, I think that the tactical aspect of 4e takes a little while to "get". Also, I think that in 4e, a larger number of combats feel harder than a similar number in 3e. Almost every fight will have at least on character below 0, one monster that gets a lucky crit, etc. It takes awhile to notice that 0 is scary, but not terrifying.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
1) How many PCs do you have?
2) What is the role/class makeup of your party?
3) Are the PCs using their abilities to aid one another/in a tactical manner?
4) Do they have a strong grasp of 4e rules?
Or #5: Your players are as stubborn as their DM. Whereas you don't like to deviate from things as written, they may feel that they also have to "stick to the script" and if the script says 'fight', they fight until all the pieces on one side or the other are down.
Not every encounter in every published adventure is meant to be tackled head-on by every group by running into the 'room' swords drawn. Not every encounter in a published adventure is meant to be survivable if the PCs don't withdraw (not only running away, but also possibly regrouping.)
It sounds like on one side, you've got a DM that likes a very clear and straight road ahead, and on the other side you've got a group of players that keep going down the road in front of them no matter what.
I don't think it's party numbers or composition. Any group should be able to face the challenges in front of them. But the DM has to provide the options and opportunities, and the players have to recognize and take them. Not providing options or tailoring situations in a tactical game leaves it to the law of averages - one side or the other is going to die, and it depends on who lands the blows, and eventually it will be the monsters landing the blows. Ergo, a TPK is inevitable in that style of play. You're all 'in the box', and like a lot of boxes there isn't a lot of room for a variety of outcomes. This is 'boxing ring' roleplaying... two enter, one leaves. Eventually, that's not going to go well for the PCs.
Somebody, preferably multiple somebodies, needs to step outside of that box.
I must have a massive nerd gene to wonder why no one has said "CALL 911!" yet...
Help stopping a DM from killing his players right??
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Participants in the Pentagon simulations were sometimes of very high rank, including members of Congress and White House insiders as well as senior military officers. The identity of many of the participants remains secret even today. It is a tradition in US simulations (and those run by many other nations) that participants are guaranteed anonymity. The main reason for this is that occasionally they may take on a role or express an opinion that is at odds with their professional or public stance (for example portraying a fundamentalist terrorist or advocating hawkish military action), and thus could harm their reputation or career if their in-game persona became widely known.
(cut)
...former US president Ronald Reagan was a keen visitor to simulations conducted in the 1980s, but as an observer only. An official explained: "No president should ever disclose his hand, not even in a war game". Para,6
I must have a massive nerd gene to wonder why no one has said "CALL 911!" yet...
Help stopping a DM from killing his players right??
i thought the same thing reading the thread title.
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