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That would be tough to do, because your beast form wouldn't be able to access any of your regular powers, and at the time you initially took the multiclass feat, would have zero beast powers unless the feat itself granted you one. And if it did that, it would grant it per encounter since that's the usual pattern.
I think its more likely that druid multiclassing will focus on the non beast form powers.
I would expect a multiclass Druid to either get Wildshape At-Will for one combat per day(similar to how the Swordmage multiclass gets the AC bonus for one combat) and an At-Will beast power to use during it, or to get a non-beast Druid At-Will as an encounter power similar to what the Wizard and Warlock get.
I would expect a multiclass Druid to either get Wildshape At-Will for one combat per day(similar to how the Swordmage multiclass gets the AC bonus for one combat) and an At-Will beast power to use during it, or to get a non-beast Druid At-Will as an encounter power similar to what the Wizard and Warlock get.
Except the Swordmage doesn't have powers a multi-classer might pick up later that are based on the AC bonus. If Wildshape were limited to one encounter, then any other At-Will and Encounter Beast Form powers the character selects will be limited as well. You'd essentially turn any such Enounter power into a Daily. A wimpy Daily.
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Except the Swordmage doesn't have powers a multi-classer might pick up later that are based on the AC bonus. If Wildshape were limited to one encounter, then any other At-Will and Encounter Beast Form powers the character selects will be limited as well. You'd essentially turn any such Enounter power into a Daily. A wimpy Daily.
The only other way to do it would to give multiclass Druids a Beast at-will and Wildshape until the end of your next turn 1/encounter.
Maybe not the AC or HP, but Call of the Beast makes Divine Challenge look like a child's petulant pout of marking.
It forces the target(s) to melee attack the closest one. That's not really defendering, so much as it is borking the ranged guys. Besides, only the Swordmage gets to do marks at a distance and let it stay at a distance.
Not to mention that Call of the Beast is an area attack, which is causing OAs if you cast it in melee.
Call of the Beast is very situational.
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And a dwarf druid with a 20 Con could have pretty darn respectable HP and AC, too.
Getting 20 con (even with a dwarf) is going to hurt all your other stats, unless you rolled a nat 18. And then you're putting that nat 18 in your CON instead of WISDOM, which is what you're using to hit everything with. So, a 20 con just isn't realistically achievable.
[quote]EDIT: Dwarf druid with a 20 Con in Beast Form with the Staff Fighting feat starts with a 19 AC/quote]
Flaw with your logic. This assumes that you're allowed to benefit from a double weapon when you're in beast form. The text of wildshape says your equipment is sucked into your body. So you don't really have an off hand to facilitate the defensive nature of the double weapon, and nor are you really "wielding" your staff.
It's a serious questionable notion. I can't imagine a DM letting you get away with that. You might, when not in Beast form, but not while in it.
As I recall, it specifically states that you can't use the properties or powers of weapons when you're in beast form, and your equipment becomes part of your body when you merge, except that you drop everything except implements you can use. One could try to argue that staves are an implement you can use, but using it a _weapon_ is pretty clearly forbidden to me in a RAW sense. And in a RAI sense, trying to claim defensive bonii for a combat style for a weapon that doesn't even exist when you're in beast form... that seems pretty silly to me.
Actually, can someone tell me the usefulness of 'Call of the Beast'? I don't really 'get' its purpose.
My guesses as to the purpose of "Call of the Beast":
1. It targets the WILL defense, which the other 7 Druid At-Will Attacks do not; so it's more useful against Zombies and other low-will attackers.
2. It deprives any targets it hits of the ability to gain Combat Advantage; this is a salient part of the Controller role, because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy.
3. It imposes a penalty that the enemies know about, which only takes effect on hit targets that do not attack the nearest of your allies; this also reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy, because they now take damage if they do not attack the nearest Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Rogue or Warlord instead of surging en masse to attack the Cleric or the Druid or the Wizard -- i.e. the notably squishy Leaders and Controllers. (If you can dull the tactical edge that the enemy gets from swarming toward the softest targets, go for it!)
Any damage this attack does is entirely secondary. The point of this evocation appears to be doing crowd-control instead of doing damage. (Area burst 1 against massed enemies won't control a very BIG crowd, but it's probably enough for an At-Will.)
My guesses as to the purpose of "Call of the Beast":
1. It targets the WILL defense, which the other 7 Druid At-Will Attacks do not; so it's more useful against Zombies and other low-will attackers.
That I pegged.
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2. It deprives any targets it hits of the ability to gain Combat Advantage; this is a salient part of the Controller role, because it reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy.
This is a bit of a mixed bag for me.
Call of the Beast hits all creatures in the area. So if you don't want to zap your allies, this means you use it when the enemies are Over There, not Over Here next to your friends. So, the only chance the guys Over There will have combat advantage against your friends Over Here is if it's a surprise round (which isn't useful for the power), the enemy is hidden (good luck hitting them), or your friends are down on the ground (under a status condition, prone, etc). So that limits the usefulness of it right there.
The only other instance that comes to mind is in melee with your allies, such as flanks, or again, status effect + melee. Which means that you're going to have to hit your friends in order to stop the monsters from getting CA. And if your friends can't attack their nearest enemy (for whatever reason), then they're taking damage.
Not to mention that the only monsters where CA is all that significant is the lurker and skirmisher. For other monster roles, the CA is just giving a +2 to hit.
It's far too situational for my tastes, for an At-Will. I can't see even using it every fight, because its usefulness depends on the makeup of the monsters you're fighting and their place on the battlefield, and your allies positions. It's a headache.
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3. It imposes a penalty that the enemies know about, which only takes effect on hit targets that do not attack the nearest of your allies; this also reduces the combat effectiveness of the enemy, because they now take damage if they do not attack the nearest Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Rogue or Warlord instead of surging en masse to attack the Cleric or the Druid or the Wizard -- i.e. the notably squishy Leaders and Controllers.
Of course, to do that they have to rush past the defensive line. If they're at your flank, or the nearest allies are not your defensive line, then you're even encouraging the enemy to go after the squishies. (Also, I think the strikers are squishier than leaders; the latter has better armor).
I'd have to agree, Call of the Wild seems too situational ... I'd sooner use the other AoE attacks. Chill Wind is solid, although attacking Fort makes it harder to land, and Flame Seed is really good.
Overall though, the Druid has some really solid at-wills. I can't wait to see the whole class.
Since the Errata/Updates says
So it is possible (at DM's discretion) for a druid to target something near a bunch of minions and thus get off the minion-killing goodness of flame seed without having to actually hit a difficult, dodging target. Aim it at the easy-to-hit object and watch the minions around it shrivel.
Won't work if the DM likes saying 'No', but I'd guess for most people that I see expecting considerable latitude from DMs on a range of stuff related to spells, it is pretty easy to justify lobbing the acorn by aiming at the ground near the minions.
Cheers
True, however it follows the bag of rats rule. People were complaining about the warlock's ability to auto-kill minions with dual wielding rods.
Ultimately, a DM can allow the druid to have a way to instantly kill minions. However that is the DM deciding to make the druid "better than the wizard". It is not a feature that is intentional ... this is the kind of power that fits perfectly for "bag of rats". Also, targeting an object is different than targeting "the ground". (Also, isn't everything standing on the ground adjacent to it?) The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.
EDIT:
Re-Multiclassing
With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.
It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...
Last edited by WalterKovacs; 3rd December 2008 at 06:52 PM..
The DM might allow the druid to attack a specific object in the square, but won't allow an empty square to be attacked.
I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool
"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"
However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool
"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"
I confess that my preferred use of Flame Seed would be making areas dangerous for enemies to walk into. Similar to how one would use cloud of daggers to make stepping into adoorway dangerous. The ability to make terrain threatening is really appealing to me.
So I would be attacking the ground.
Another thing I noticed is that Chill Wind is a super thunderwave. It effects the same area and attacks the same defense, but it's a ranged attack, and you can slide the target as opposed to just push them.
With Martial Power they've introduced more multi-class options. It may be possible that each build of Druid would have their own multiclass options. Also, they may have a paragon path feast for someone that multiclasses "all the way" into druid getting the wild shape at-will.
It's possible that they give it 2/encounter (i.e. you can become a beast, and go back to being human 1 per encounter). Similar to the divine challenge which you can use 1/encounter, and it lasts until the end of the encounter, but you lose the option of transfering, etc ...
Yeah, someone on the WotC boards mentioned it could be something like this... 1/Encounter with no duration limit. It would still need a Beast Form power or the Wildshape itself is basically useless.
I could see Wildshape 1/encounter + 1 Beast Form At-will usable once per encounter as part of a Druid MC feat. Having the At-will still actually function at will might be too good for a starting MC feat, especially since certain classes might have some strong synergies might emerging when switching back and forth from a condition-causing power and their normal form powers.
Plus, the MC character also gets the benefit of the 1 square shift when they change back to human. And the disguise factor of Wildshape is a benefit which hasn't been mentioned much. Posing as a stray dog or hiding in a herd of swine could have its benefits.
The 1/Encounter-til-end-of-encounter solution resolves the problem I mentioned upthread of additional Power Swap feat and Paragon multiclassing powers not being usable as frequently as intended. It would, however, mean the player has to think more strategically about when they use Wildshape in an encounter and if/when they should shift back.
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
I'd rule that if the goal is to destroy/disable an object, like the rope holding up a chandelier, then it can be a target. Especially if the result is something cinematic and cool
"I attack the ground!" is right up there with "I attack the darkness!"
However, I could seen a pretty reasonable simulationist argument that Flame Seed is pretty much a grenade attack, which you usually target a location near the creature, not the creature itself. In fact, the fluff for Flame Seed even says: "When it strikes the ground..."
I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.
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I think that in most cases, attacking the ground would fall under the "legitimate targets - bag of rats" rule in the DMG.
It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.
But there you go.
wrt to Chill Wind, I personally don't think it is as good as Thunderwave - the big, big advantage of thunderwave is that it is a close attack power, and better than that it is a "get away from me" close attack power.
It seems from the little we've seen before that they might have decided to balance the Druid a little by limiting his access to close attack powers (which seems a good thing to me - if he wants to attack people close to him he has got his beast powers.)
Cheers
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It's funny, because in other threads I've had a hard time for being too restrictive in how I'd allow spells to be used, but this seems to be a fairly straightforward case of throwing a magic grenade at a specific location to me (probably requiring that someone target a prominent rock on the ground where he wants it to burst, using the p42 table to allocate a DC). Quite different to a 'bag of rats' situation IMO.
But there you go.
I see what you're saying, but it just seems like a way to game the system to me. Still, we are strictly speaking about minion killing here, so I probably shouldn't be too harsh and I wouldn't want to quash player creativity. Luckily, the moderate DCs on pg 42 probably aren't too far off from the average minion's Reflex defense.
__________________ Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
Missing the ground isn't as ridiculous as it sounds.
Go outside and mark a fairly large red X on the ground, then walk back 20-50 feet away from it.
Now pitch baseballs at that X. No underhand tossing, no gentle lobbing. A direct, fast throw.
Throw about 100 of them, and see if you hit that X every time. Most people will miss it quite a few times. I'll bet I'd only hit it about 50% of the time, or less. A very good pitcher would probably hit it 95% or more of the time, but he could still miss occasionally.
Now have a couple of your friends run around and spar in between you and that X on the ground 20-50 feet away, and keep trying to hit it.
Now try to hit it quickly while angry dogs are running toward you barking and growling.
Not as easy as it sounds anymore, eh?
Sure, if you're aiming at an adjacent square, I'd say there's no need for a roll. That's easy. But further away, I'd give the ground a base AC/Reflex of 8, plus you'd take the penalty for attacking a "prone" target with a ranged attack, plus I'd make it especially easy for the piece of ground to get cover or superior cover if anything or anyone was in the way, because it has no height component, no bulk to aim at.
So you could easily end up having to hit a 10 or 12, maybe even a 15, virtual Reflex score, to target a piece of ground. That's still not very tough, but at least it provides some chance to miss, which doesn't seem unlikely to me, and it also maintains the game balance aspect.
So no "free" minion-killing without a roll. But still pretty easy, because you're just trying to hit an X on the ground.
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