Go Back   EN World D&D / RPG News > General RPG Forums > General RPG Discussion

General RPG Discussion Discussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.

 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1st December 2008, 06:26 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Amy Kou'ai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 705
Amy Kou'ai Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
I notice that the at-wills are in some cases strictly better than a comparable wizard at-will, e.g. flame seed vs. cloud of daggers.
__________________
Code of the Rogue Gamemistress
1. Fun is the highest principle.
2. Choice is a form of fun.
3. Let the dice fall where they may.

throw new ThreadKilledException();

Last edited by Amy Kou'ai; 1st December 2008 at 06:31 AM..
Amy Kou'ai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:30 AM   #22 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,229
thecasualoblivion Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Kou'ai View Post
I notice that the at-wills are in some cases strictly better than a comparable wizard at-will, e.g. chill wind vs. thunderwave, flame seed vs. cloud of daggers, and so on.

(Edit: Ninja'd.)
Chill Wind and Flame Seed don't deal +Wisdom.
thecasualoblivion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Hawke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 450
Hawke Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
I wonder how easily it would be to completely ignore either the more distance-controller side or the beast form side. Hard to tell from the first, uh 2, levels.

But as an example you could create a Shapeshifter/Werewolf
At-Will (Call of the Wild, Grasping Claws, Savage Rend)
Encounter (Darting Bite)
Daily (Savage Frenzy)
Utility (Fleet Pursuit)

I wonder how this would ultimately scale... or if we can expect a similar wild shape from the Warden with beefier abilities more tailored to a defender? It seems easier to be a full-controller druid, though.
__________________
MapTool - Play Online, Face-to-Face, Anywhere! Open Source, Multi-system, Community Driven, Multi-platform, Free!
Hawke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:31 AM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 980
doctorhook Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaezen View Post
And that they have EIGHT to choose from straight off the bat.

That said, so far I am liking what I am seeing. The utilities seem to give erm utility to the beast form. Skittering sneak is nice for those players who like using thier wildshape to scout and spy.

Phaezen
I really like Skittering Sneak. The layout of that power suggests to me that we'll see additional wild shape utilities at higher levels, including perhaps Large or even Huge creatures, or Swarms, presented with similar mechanics.
__________________
CHARACTER OPTIMIZATION WIKI - Feel free to contribute!

Obsolete project: Ritual Index, Compiled by Level (v1.2; 27 Sept 2008)
doctorhook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:33 AM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 560
ppaladin123 Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
It looks like I can easily re-skin the druid into a monk..I mean really easily. Pick all the close/melee powers, change the implement to ki-straps or something of the sort, make wild shape (let's you shift as a minor!), "battle focus" and viola.
__________________

ppaladin123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:36 AM   #26 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Amy Kou'ai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 705
Amy Kou'ai Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecasualoblivion View Post
Chill Wind and Flame Seed don't deal +Wisdom.
Huh, you're right. I stand corrected.

Interesting to see "Beast Form" and "Implement", incidentally.
__________________
Code of the Rogue Gamemistress
1. Fun is the highest principle.
2. Choice is a form of fun.
3. Let the dice fall where they may.

throw new ThreadKilledException();
Amy Kou'ai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:38 AM   #27 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Shroomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,900
Shroomy Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Kou'ai View Post
Huh, you're right. I stand corrected.

Interesting to see "Beast Form" and "Implement", incidentally.
Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly. Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.
__________________
Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
Shroomy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:41 AM   #28 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Fallen Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,830
Fallen Seraph Kobold Slinger (Lvl 1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shroomy View Post
Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly. Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.
Well I guess the long-standing question of how one would do a melee oriented Controller has been answered :P

This one really looks like it will be one where without any effort a whole smörgåsbord of different types of characters can come into being.
Fallen Seraph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 980
doctorhook Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shroomy View Post
Its needed to scale the at-will powers correctly. Whats cool about the Beast Form at-wills is that all of them contain a mini-controller effect even though they are melee powers.
This is the closest to "melee Controller" we've yet seen, though it's not a dedicated melee combatant.

I'm not sure I'd a character with those Hit Points up front all the time anyway.

EDIT: Partially ninja'd.
__________________
CHARACTER OPTIMIZATION WIKI - Feel free to contribute!

Obsolete project: Ritual Index, Compiled by Level (v1.2; 27 Sept 2008)
doctorhook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:46 AM   #30 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Andor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Enterprise, Florida
Posts: 2,778
Andor Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Send a message via AIM to Andor
Wow, is it just me or is this guy the rogue's best friend? An at will that grants combat advantage? Not to mention they can fling baddies around left and right for optimal positioning.

A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team. Err... What the hell, it works.

Oh, and what the heck is an aftereffect? New keyword there?
__________________
-Andor

"Congratulations. You just invented 'negligent regicide.'" - Schlock Mercenary

Seeking a game in Florida.
Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:51 AM   #31 (permalink)
Registered User
 
chaotix42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 727
chaotix42 Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
An aftereffect kicks in after a creature makes a successful save against that power.
chaotix42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:51 AM   #32 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Shroomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,900
Shroomy Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andor View Post
Wow, is it just me or is this guy the rogue's best friend? An at will that grants combat advantage? Not to mention they can fling baddies around left and right for optimal positioning.

A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team. Err... What the hell, it works.

Oh, and what the heck is an aftereffect? New keyword there?
The at-will call of the beast denies the target the ability to gain combat advantage, it doesn't grant it. Aftereffects are described in the MM; they happen if you hit the target and after the initial effect ends.
__________________
Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
Shroomy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:52 AM   #33 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Fallen Seraph's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,830
Fallen Seraph Kobold Slinger (Lvl 1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andor View Post
A rogue and a druid in the same party looks to be just gruesome. And really, it just makes sense that 'dirty alley sneak' and 'savage wilderness priest' should make the perfet team. Err... What the hell, it works.

Oh, and what the heck is an aftereffect? New keyword there?
It is funny cause in most of my settings where there are Druids it actually does. Since their generally underground urban groups trying to have nature overwhelm the city, so they deal with criminal groups a ton :P

As for aftereffect, monsters have it. In the MM it is stated as being:
Quote:
Some monster powers have aftereffects. An aftereffect happens automatically when a power’s initial effect ends. A creature is subjected to an aftereffect only if it was hit by the power. An aftereffect doesn’t trigger on a missed attack unless otherwise noted.
So looks like perhaps PHB2 will have some character abilities that only monsters had before.

Edit: Martial Power and Dragon has some Powers that had aftereffect as well.

Last edited by Fallen Seraph; 1st December 2008 at 06:56 AM..
Fallen Seraph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 06:56 AM   #34 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Shroomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,900
Shroomy Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Its interesting that using the currently available races, humans make a particularly strong druid thanks to the extra at-will. I wonder if any of the Primal-focused races in the PHB2(I'm guessing Shifter, Goliath, and Half-Orc) will have a racial ability granting them access to more Primal abilities?
__________________
Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
Shroomy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:00 AM   #35 (permalink)
Stirgeblogger
 
Roger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 650
Roger Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
I think I'm going to run off and create a warforged druid right now.

He shall be named Optimus Prime.


Cheers,
Roger
Roger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:08 AM   #36 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Ktulu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Selah, Wa
Posts: 612
Ktulu Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
Send a message via MSN to Ktulu Send a message via Skype™ to Ktulu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
I think I'm going to run off and create a warforged druid right now.

He shall be named Optimus Primal


Cheers,
Roger
fixed that for you.
__________________
"..Death greets me warm; Now I will just say goodbye.."

Endless Horizons - A 4e Sundered Skies Campaign

Epic Words Campaign Blog - Fall of the Rankan Empire (Retired)
Ktulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:10 AM   #37 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Shroomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,900
Shroomy Hobgoblin Soldier (Lvl 3)
I have to say before I go to bed, I'm very pleased with this glimpse of the druid. Bravo WotC!
__________________
Veronica: Where's your brother?
Dick: I think he took Ghost World up to his room. They're probably up there making love. Or playing Dungeons and Dragons. Or both, at the same time. They're both, like, 12th-level dorks. I'm just sayin'
Shroomy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:11 AM   #38 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,608
Cadfan Snaketongue Initiate (Lvl 7)Cadfan Snaketongue Initiate (Lvl 7)
Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Shape
Effect: You change from your humanoid form to beast form or vice versa. When you change from beast form back to your humanoid form, you can shift 1 square.

This is absolute genius. This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.

If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.

Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution. The wisdom and dex were inevitable, because of elves. Odd, in a way. It basically pushes beast form powers towards agile beasts like cougars and away from tough beasts like bears or boars.

Ok, there are a LOT of at wills here, seriously. But you get three of them. That's... definitely a good move. Because as we're going to see, some of these are highly situational.

Call the Beast: Hmm. Its a neat effect, but as an at will? Also, "when it doesn't" should be "if it doesn't."

Chill Wind: Doesn't add your wisdom modifier to damage? I guess it kind of can't, because if it did it would be miles above Scorching Burst, but it kind of bites to have a power that remains that static in terms of damage. Makes it only really useful for the slide, not for the damage dealt. I'd at least have made it Wisdom modifier damage without the die roll- the average at level 1 is nearly identical, and it can grow a little over time.

Flame Seed: The spaces adjacent, but not the space itself? It creates a little wall around the target. Are you considered adjacent to yourself? More important, is your space considered a space adjacent to you? The dictionary says no.

Grasping Claws: Hey, I just now noticed that natural weapons don't need proficiency bonuses. You can just make them target defenses, and let the attacker use an implement that isn't held in the hand. Neat!

Pounce: This is good.

Savage Rend: Aww, they totally stole this one from my homebrew that I never published! Stupid WOTC psychic thieves! Seriously though, this power is written on a yellow legal pad two feet to my fight as a part of my homebrew shapeshifting class. Even the theme is the same- swat someone with claws, slide them a space.

Storm Spike: The damage is acceptable for an at will single target ranged attack even without the extra effect if they don't move, so this one's fine. Makes nice combinations with an ally's Immobilization attacks, but the damage isn't high enough to go too crazy with it. BUT IT NEEDS ERRATA! The theme is totally screwed up if someone else slides the target while its not the target's turn. It should be "If the target doesn't move at least 2 squares BEFORE THE END OF its next turn, it takes lightning damage equal to your Wisdom modifier."

Thorn Whip: This one's cool. Nice for use by a character with good melee powers, but without the durability to charge into the center of battle. Pull your foe out a little, then take them on.

Cull the Herd: Eh... not sure what I think of beast form attacks that don't actually use the beast form much. I mean, its a spell, its magic, why can't you use it when you're in human form? It won't bother me long, but the theme is not strong with this one.

Darting Bite: Your run of the mill maneuverability based encounter power.

Frost Flash: Without the bonus damage, this is really weak. With it, its ok.

Twisting Vines: Very thematic. Again with the "each space adjacent" thing. This one makes me wonder- is this an oversight? Because it creates REALLY weird patterns on the ground if you capture two or more targets within your burst 1.

Faerie Fire: Thematic and powerful. I like it.

Fires of Life: Neat, but I suspect it will be difficult to use.

Savage Frenzy: Classic melee stuff.

Wind Prison: Really odd. Makes the DM make some weird decisions, because the target is presumed to know the effects of powers used against him. So the DM has to ask- the monster knows he's granting combat advantage, but also that if he moves, his allies will be harmed, unless he moves immediately before them in the initiative order and they can safely stand back up, and in any case this monster is an orc who probably doesn't like his allies much anyways, and... etc.

Barkskin: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Oh well. The old barkskin doesn't fit 4e anyways.

Fleet Pursuit: Fine, but should probably be rephrased. The clauses could fit better with some commas and a reordering.

Obscuring Mist: The wording on the Sustain could be better. I'm not sure how much use this will get.

Skittering Sneak: The sort of thing a lot of people expected. But... it helps Stealth, and not Bluff. So once you're noticed, everyone knows you're a Druid in disguise?

General Thoughts

Overall I like it. It seems to strike the right balance to me of wild shape and magic. But because "I love it! I really do!" isn't that interesting, I'm going to put down some criticisms.

The beast form powers aren't all that thematic. This was inevitable, I think, for reasons I'll describe in more detail in my discussion of my fantasy heartbreaker version of wild shape. But in short, making your beast form a nebulous animal-like shape basically prevents you from crafting powers that make explicit, thematic use of your beast form's characteristics. For example, its tough to make a power themed after goring a foe with tusks if the beast form doesn't have mechanically relevant attributes.

I'm really skeptical of efforts to create melee controller powers. This seems to bear out my skepticism. Sure, you can create melee powers that Slow, Daze, or Immobilize, but that really just keeps the target in one place: right next to you. Where they then attack you. Which is called being a Defender. So they can claim that this class is a Controller that can also be a little bit of a Striker or a Leader, but when I see a class that makes enemies hold still and fight man to man, I know I'm seeing a Defender. Guess we'll have to wait a little and find out exactly how much of that there is in the Druid. The human form stuff is certainly control.

The wild shape is aesthetically unsatisfying to me. I knew this would happen, so I can't complain much, and every previous edition of wild shape has been similarly unsatisfying to me, but there you go. The things I want in wild shape are: 1. I want to KNOW what it is I'm wild shaping into. This nebulous beast form doesn't do it for me. 2. I want the thing I'm wild shaping into to have an effect on the game. This beast form really doesn't- it just opens access to a suite of powers. That would work if that suite of powers were heavily themed based on the nature of my beast form, but they aren't. 3. I don't want to have a million different things I wild shape into. I want one, maybe two, and I want to specialize in them. An example of what I'm looking for would be something like, "You can wild shape into a bear. In bear form, you have the following bear themed powers. As you level up, you will get additional bear themed powers, as you master your form." It doesn't seem that I'm getting this. The wild shape powers previewed so far don't go into this much.

I'm not bitter about this, because I suspect that what I want runs counter to what the vast majority of D&D players want. And honestly, this comes a lot closer than what I expected (this gives you one beast form, you can theme it as you please, and the powers are generic, so while you're not aided in playing like I want, you're not hindered either).
Cadfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:13 AM   #39 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Glenview, IL
Posts: 130
Solodan Goblin Sharpshooter (Lvl 2)
Wow, looks interesting. Note the suggested feats - I wonder what those do.

Seems more of a teaser than a playtest. Not much we can break with only level 1 and 2 abilitities.

Well, let it be said, I've been teased.
Solodan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2008, 07:16 AM   #40 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 980
doctorhook Orc Berserker (Lvl 4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solodan View Post
Wow, looks interesting. Note the suggested feats - I wonder what those do.

Seems more of a teaser than a playtest. Not much we can break with only level 1 and 2 abilitities.

Well, let it be said, I've been teased.
They must have decided not to spoil the entire book beforehand.
__________________
CHARACTER OPTIMIZATION WIKI - Feel free to contribute!

Obsolete project: Ritual Index, Compiled by Level (v1.2; 27 Sept 2008)
doctorhook is offline   Reply With Quote


Bookmarks

Tags
druid, playtest:

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


And yet another word from our sponsors
Visit Our Sponsors
Visit Our Sponsors... Again
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:41 PM.


Site Contents © 2008 ENWorld
PHP Ajax Multimedia Web Framework © 2008 Digital Media Graphix
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0

"Vault Data" powered by VaultWiki v2.5.1.
Copyright © 2008 - 2009, Cracked Egg Studios.