General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
The minion killableness of Flame Seed isn't as important, to me, as the zone-creation aspect. I likes me some battlefield control, and covering flanks.
As far as "Killing minions", it's far more on par with Scorching Burst. Same area of effect.
The only upside to Cloud of Daggers is that you can target a single enemy who seems interested in staying in one place (such as the target of a fighter's Combat Superior, or a Viper Strike). Not to mention that the single target in the center it hits isn't in the zone, but is merely attacked for d6 damage. Also, Cloud of Daggers can cover a single space, which is much better aiming (like say, covering a door).
The Druid is among the most versatile classes we've seen in terms of playstyle. From what we've seen of the first three levels, I can see a stand firm and slug it out melee type Druid, a hit and run specialist, an inside out ranged melee hybrid, and a full time ranged spellcaster. You can combine any or all of them. All of these can be achieved via powers, with no real demands on your ability score array.
Druids are definitely the best hybrid melee/ranged concept they've done for 4E, as other current choices are either demanding stat-wise or require heavy feat investment or both.
I'm already chomping at the bit to play one of these. If Ampersand will allow me to play up to level 10 ... my Wizard PC may develop a death wish.
There's a lot of versatility in this class, and a lot of fun. The ranged AoE strikes aren't as damaging as the Wizard's, but they're solid Controller fun.
Hm. I'm racking my brain to come up with some good feats for the druid.
So far, the only ones that leap out are:
Improved Init
Burning Blizzard/Raging Storm
Toughness/Durable
Defensive Mobility (For your skirmisher builds)
Powerful Charge
This is the folly of having all these feats specific to classes.
Some line by line critique, and then some thoughts at the end to sum up.
[druid shifting when going from beast to humanoid]
This is absolute genius. This is going to be the hidden MVP of the entire Druid class.
If it weren't for this, you'd basically start by casting spells, then shift to beast form for some melee cleanup. But thanks to this one line here, you can switch to beast form, charge into melee, do some damage, shift back and shift back a space to throw down a control spell, then shift to beast form again next round and reenter the fray. This one little line permits the class to function as a sort of dance between beast and human form, instead of just one or the other.
I was running in to post this. It's really a beautiful idea, and makes me really excited to play a balanced druid who can do both. I want higher levels, right effing now!
Druids have always been my favorite class, and I don't foresee this changing.
Also: Savage Rend is excellent. Your OAs push enemies into the fighter?! Too awesome.
Am I the only one who saw the Preview of the druid and immediately thought of making a warforged/druid who transforms into mechanical beasts and is basically a transformer?
Yeah, it was probably was just me.
Well considering the Warforged Dragon Article has shoulder guns for Warforged that are built it, that really isn't going that far out.
And yeah I thought of that too.
__________________ I'm one of the lucky ones. I married a "gamer-girl."
"Build 'em like a powergamer, but play 'em like a roleplayer." - firesnakearies
Man, Wizards are hurting after this. The Druid is an infinitely more interesting class to play already, and I've only seen 3 levels of it.
Controller is such a weird role.
I do, however, really like this here druid.
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
Hm. I'm racking my brain to come up with some good feats for the druid.
So far, the only ones that leap out are:
Improved Init
Burning Blizzard/Raging Storm
Toughness/Durable
Defensive Mobility (For your skirmisher builds)
Powerful Charge
This is the folly of having all these feats specific to classes.
I would really hope that PHB2 has lots of feats specific to the classes contained, nullifying this problem. Heck Wizards have not much that is useful to spend their feats on (after leather armour proficiency!)...Burning Bliz etc is so nerfed compared to wep focus. IMC I allow Implement focus, that balances it IMO.
I would really hope that PHB2 has lots of feats specific to the classes contained, nullifying this problem. Heck Wizards have not much that is useful to spend their feats on (after leather armour proficiency!)...Burning Bliz etc is so nerfed compared to wep focus. IMC I allow Implement focus, that balances it IMO.
For at-wills, I like Chill Wind, Flame Seed, Pounce and Savage Rend. A mix of both modes, useful things to do (sliding!) in each, hitting two defenses, not too situational.
I'm not really happy with any of the level 1 encounters, though. Nothing I like quite as much as Icy Terrain. Flash Freeze is notable for being a level 1 encounter immobilize, though.
Faerie Fire is a badass daily, as is Fire of Life. Man, Fire of Life on a bunch of minions is like Flame Strike and Mass Cure Light Wounds together. Very nice.
Looks like we will be getting a bit more Druid info on Friday:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon #370 Table of Contents
Ampersand
By Bill Slavicsek
Bill previews more of the druid and looks further ahead to another 2009 release.
Other interesting things to note, Druid and Invoker tags have been changed from Playtest to Preview. Makes sense as the book is most likely in final editing or at the printers by now.
Dragon #370 Table of Contents
Other interesting things to note, Druid and Invoker tags have been changed from Playtest to Preview. Makes sense as the book is most likely in final editing or at the printers by now.
This might be, but a Preview is just an Advertisement and quite useless for a Dragon Subscriber. Level 1-3 is to low for most ongoing campaigns and new Campaigns will surely not include a Class since you soon outgrow that level and that player would have to change his Character.
It's nice to have something to quell the curiosity about the new classes, but I want Articles that can actually be used by Players or the GM.
Look, I'm not saying that 4E is like WoW, or any of that. I'm just saying that IF the head R&D guys at WotC DO happen to play WoW, I'm willing to wager on what their main characters' class is. "Sweet, I finally got my Wildfury Greatstaff! Now I can get back to work on Player's Handbook 2."
I don't like to use phrases like, "most blatant pandering ever" or "WTF overpowered much?" or "wizards are obsolete now" . . . but come ON.
Imagine if you took one class that already exists, and then just made it totally better in every way. Or, just read this druid preview.
Swordmages didn't make fighters look like an endangered species.
Artificers and bards don't seem to make clerics and warlords look like sorry jokes.
Barbarians don't seem to make rogues and rangers look like future unemployment line rejects.
But druids? Seriously, if this is what the class looks like when PHB2 goes to print, I'm going to be appalled.
This looks to me like we have a SERIOUS case of "developer's favorite class" syndrome.
Also, apparently dwarves are the most natural choice for druids now? Nice.
I've been pretty ardently defending every mechanical AND flavor/lore choice that's been made for 4E, even the controversial things and the radical departures from the older versions.
But this druid is just plain nonsense.
"Sup, Mr. Wizard guy? I'm a lot like you, except, I kinda make you look like a chump. Pretty much, anything you can do, I can do better. Cloud of Daggers? Neat, I guess. I've got something just like that, except mine affects NINE squares at-will, instead of just one. Kinda makes me feel like I'm cheating, frankly. I also get a lot more hit points and better armor than you, oh, and I can use the same stat that gives me more hit points to also raise my AC."
"Plus I can smash face in melee whenever I want, if I get bored with casting way better spells than you from range. If I was any kind of reasonable class, I'd have to, like, pick between two main stats for my melee or ranged focus, but heh, I'm a druid, so just Wisdom does it all for me. All of my melee at-will attack powers hit non-AC defenses, and I use my ranged-spell stat for them, and oh yeah, they're ALL basic attacks. Heh."
"I can auto-kill a pile of minions without an attack roll, using just a level 1 at-will power. You? Not only can I set up colossal zone of auto-damage at-will, I've got a whole ton of other at-wills and encounter powers that I can use, at range OR in melee, to slide or pull people into, through, and back into my huge at-will deathfire zone."
"Did I mention I can shred guys in melee, and have better AC and hit points than anyone besides the defenders? Yeah. Did I mention that I'm sliding and/or slowing people with my melee basic attacks, all the time, in addition to full damage, against a weak defense? Yeah, I'm a controller, by the way. Like you! Well, not really. I DO cast ranged AoEs and zones at-will, when I'm not busy doing cooler stuff in melee than the fighters can do."
"I've also got more at-wills than most other two classes combined. Your little spellbook thing is okay, I guess, but I get to actually do more stuff in reality, not just in theory "oh, I COULD have memorized that other spell today..." I've got frost shock, too. Er, frost "flash" -- whatever we're calling it. Call of the Beast is just so absurd for an at-will that I'm not even going to go into that one."
"Also, are you handing out free healing to multiple party members, without requiring surge use, WHILE killing a bunch of minions at range, Mr. Wizard? At 1st level? Oh no, I guess you're not. Dude, you're kinda weak. Wait'll you see my higher-level powers, my special feats, my special items, my paragon paths, my epic destinies. I'll be free-action-shifting into a ridiculous flying form before you can finish reading PHB2. Watch me."
"By the way, I'm a dwarf, so it's pretty intuitive that I'd be the ideal exemplar of druidism, don't you think? When I think of preserving nature, I think of a race of obsessive strip-miners with countless pollution-spewing forges, personally. How about you?"
"I guess I technically don't make EVERY other class obsolete. I mean, we could still use a healer or two, I suppose. And maybe rangers and rogues could still be slightly useful. But I do know for sure that we don't need YOU anymore, Dumbledore. So kick rocks, kid. But don't kick 'em too hard, because I'm a dwarven druid and that'll make me angry. And you know damn well you can't take me."
The 4E Druid:Because apparently people at organized-play competitive D&D tournaments were complaining about having to spend time trying to decide what class to play.
Again: I, for one, welcome our new druid overlords!
(Is the new logo on the PHB2 just going to say Dungeons & Druids, or what?)
$
__________________
"I tore myself away from the safe comfort of certainties through my love for truth - and truth rewarded me."
- Simone de Beauvoir
Last edited by firesnakearies; 2nd December 2008 at 01:54 PM..
As a counterpoint, looking at the druid, I now wish all the other classes were made this powerful, dynamic, and interesting. The fact that the druid has more fun stuff it can do than any other class is not a problem with the druid being "too good." It's a problem with the other classes being "too boring."
Alas, I know WotC won't do it, but I'd love it if the druid would become the baseline of class power level.
__________________ Ryan "RangerWickett" Nock
Author of the War of the Burning Sky serialized novel, free at EN World. Part Two, The Irons Have Tolled, now available.
Look, I'm not saying that 4E is like WoW, or any of that. I'm just saying that IF the head R&D guys at WotC DO happen to play WoW, I'm willing to wager on what their main characters' class is. "Sweet, I finally got my Wildfury Greatstaff! Now I can get back to work on Player's Handbook 2."
WoW druids heal quite well.
__________________
360 hours played
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