General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Not only is the climate different for 3rd party publishers, but the US is also in a recession at the moment. 3e was released around the height of the dot com bubble.
Indeed!
Also since everyone had to wait for months before 3rd party books hit the market, a good deal of impulse purchases never happened. By the time mongoose could sell their splat, plenty of folks had bought their 4E books and used them.
This means plenty of folks had said no thanks to 4E long before the mongoose books were available. Also DMs had plenty of time to understand the balances in the system to be apprehensive of splat material. Not to mention I hear some DM's had longstanding bans on Mongoose material.
Mongoose does best when they are completely doing their own thing, or close to it, imho.
Conan? Brilliant. Paranoia XP? Incredible. Runequest... well, not really my cup of tea, but apparently successful.
Their generic D&D supplements were iffy at best. The Quintessential series was largely garbage, IIRC.
I'm really not surprised if their (neat-sounding but mechanics-light) setting isn't doing so well... And I didn't even know Quintessential Wizard existed, to be honest.
The one thing about Matt is that you can count on him to give it to you straight about the business. When they take a lump, he owns up to it and talks about how they're going to fix it. When they do something right, he isn't afraid to proclaim it loudly. He also has a reputation for being absolutely mercenary in terms of trying new stuff. Some gambles succeed, others don't. The only horse he has in this race is on the side of 4E, not against it.
At any rate, Matt and I get much of our information from the same source, and his statement is consistent with everything I've read. It holds up regardless of how his company's sales on those few products have been.
__________________ Darrin Drader
Freelance Writer/Game Designer
Previously posting as Whisperfoot
And I didn't even know Quintessential Wizard existed, to be honest.
I was going to bring that up, but I thought it was just me. I know the Quintessential series sold tons of copies for them in the 3.x era. I wonder if it's a lack of marketing?
__________________ Jeffrey J. Visgaitis
Creative Director The Inner Circle
I'm fairly sure they are talking about their own 4e sales. That makes sense enough to me. I've purchased everything WotC has put out for 4e (except the adventures) but I haven't touched a third party book for it.
I love 4e (or at least major components of it), I'm going to keep buying and playing it, but I'm afraid the state of the GSL is making it much harder for the sort of products I'd buy from a third party to exist... and it has chased away most of the major players who I count on to bring them to market. I really like the game that 4e is, but I'm not all that hopeful that it'll ever be the game I think it might have been.
Their generic D&D supplements were iffy at best. The Quintessential series was largely garbage, IIRC.
Absolutely. You should distance yourself from whoever wrote utter rubbish like 3e Quintessential Wizard or Rogue.
__________________ "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in your imagination..." - Cover of Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules Set 1.
I don't know about regulations limiting telling the public the number of subscriptions. In the print version, they had to do it every year. But, besides that, look at all the websites that talk about the number of subscribers they have. WOW doesn't keep their subscription numbers secret, nor do most MMO's that I can think of. Heck, even En World on its front page trumpets that it has 70 k subscribers.
What SEC problems would there be in stating how many subscribers you have?
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
At any rate, Matt and I get much of our information from the same source, and his statement is consistent with everything I've read. It holds up regardless of how his company's sales on those few products have been.
what source is that?
__________________ ~Joe
If you like what I said, throw me some XP. I was a goblin sharpshooter for far too long.
I don't know about regulations limiting telling the public the number of subscriptions. In the print version, they had to do it every year. But, besides that, look at all the websites that talk about the number of subscribers they have. WOW doesn't keep their subscription numbers secret, nor do most MMO's that I can think of. Heck, even En World on its front page trumpets that it has 70 k subscribers.
What SEC problems would there be in stating how many subscribers you have?
Same thing that stops them from releasing the number of PHB's sold, or any other internal info like that. There's a tough line where releasing that sort of info could be considered insider trading.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
Also since everyone had to wait for months before 3rd party books hit the market, a good deal of impulse purchases never happened. By the time mongoose could sell their splat, plenty of folks had bought their 4E books and used them.
This means plenty of folks had said no thanks to 4E long before the mongoose books were available. Also DMs had plenty of time to understand the balances in the system to be apprehensive of splat material. Not to mention I hear some DM's had longstanding bans on Mongoose material.
Actually, just going by my copy of the 4e Quintessential Wizard, there's a good number of things that I probably wouldn't allow my players to use. Not that anyone will play a wizard -- they all have, though various message boards, heard/been convinced the wizard sucks.
Same thing that stops them from releasing the number of PHB's sold, or any other internal info like that. There's a tough line where releasing that sort of info could be considered insider trading.
But, I don't understand. Every MMO out there that's on a subscription model, publicly states their subscriber populations. There's even websites that track that data.
Every print publication AFAIK, also makes their subscriptions publicly known.
I don't need an exact number, but, round numbers I can't see as anything but reasonable.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
They're a business, so that's a standard assumption; it's not just WotC being especially shady or anything. Of course the lack of any more such glowing statements for the most part since the core books came out might be more telling for its long-term success. Or for instance the German publisher of WotC's 4e books, Feder & Schwert, just announced the other day that they'll be dropping the line after the core three books. Plenty of stuff people can read into if they want, and likewise some folks will find a way to make any potential bad news into a glowing endorsement of WotC.
You can read into that that
a) most of their translations are mediocre to bad and
b) you can get the english corebooks for around 20 € while the german translations fall under the Buchpreisbindung and have to be sold for full cover price
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But, I don't understand. Every MMO out there that's on a subscription model, publicly states their subscriber populations. There's even websites that track that data.
Every print publication AFAIK, also makes their subscriptions publicly known.
I don't need an exact number, but, round numbers I can't see as anything but reasonable.
A better way of putting it is that such info would have to come from the PR office, not just a random aside somewhere. Its certainly not mandatory for them to publish the info; I would assume that magazines do it for advertising reasons.
The main point is that businesses cannot give info like that to select groups.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
Not only that, isn't Wraith Recon their only release? How can you call 4e an odd duck, when your product line consists of one book? And if you ask me, Wraith Recon doesn't seem like a mass appeal product. I'm not knocking it or anything like that, but I still don't have any idea what it is or what its trying to accomplish, and that isn't from a lack of trying either...
Edit: WAHOO! 2000 posts. Look out Crothian!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranig
There is the Quintessential Wizard too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JVisgaitis
Really? Still, that's only 2 products. I'd really love to hear from someone like Joe Goodman and get his take.
Goodman says his 4e stuff sells better than his 3.5 stuff did the last couple of years. I do not have time to find the link, but I have linked it before on Enworld, so a quick search should do the trick. Anyway, that's the only information he has shared.
Regarding 4e Mongoose products, I am not surprised. While a good book, Wraith Recon is a niche product if there ever was one. 4e Q. Wizard is just horrible broken and useless. Seriously. I have yet to see one positive review (and yet I still bought it ><) and that doesn't help sales on a book like that, considering it's predecessor's reputation.
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