layoffs?

[Zil]

Originally Posted by Umbran

No offense, Monte, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of current economic events on business.

I always thought the conventional wisdom was that games were somewhat cushioned from economic downturns because they are a relatively inexpensive form of entertainment and escape from the economic gloom.

Second, we've been lead to believe that 4E was selling well. Why the cuts to the RPG section then?

And third, I'm curious if these cuts were part of a general Hasbro workforce reduction and this was WoTC trying to meet their cutback quota?

Finally, I can certainly understand where Monte is arguing from. I'm seeing a similar lack of appreciation for expertise in the organization that I work for and we're losing a large amount of expertise due to indifference as I see most of those around me losing their employment ... and we maintain and develop critical computer systems whose failure can mean losing lives. A lot of organizations simply fail to appreciate expertise and instead reduce everything down to a numbers game.

[Friadoc]

Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne

On the other hand, anyone who signed on with WoTC for the 4E ramp up had to realize that fewer people were going to be needed after the launch, and planned accordingly.

Definitely true, or at least had to understand the potential for it, after the previous histories with the 3e and 3.5e layoffs.

Of course, it is just as reasonable to assume that there was going to be some Modern or SciFi ramp up, too, even though, at the moment, that seems less likely.

[Vaeron]

Originally Posted by Zil

I always thought the conventional wisdom was that games were somewhat cushioned from economic downturns because they are a relatively inexpensive form of entertainment and escape from the economic gloom.

Second, we've been lead to believe that 4E was selling well. Why the cuts to the RPG section then?

You have it exactly backwards. Non-essentials are the FIRST thing people cut out of their budget. During a recession people spend their money on things like food, or rent, or mortgage, or clothing, or electricity, or gas. But the fact that WotC isn't in congress begging for $700 billion like the banks, or threatening to go out of business and lay off thousands upon thousands of employees like the car industry, suggests they're doing much much better by comparison.

[justanobody]

Originally Posted by Vaeron

But the fact that WotC isn't in congress begging for $700 billion like the banks, or threatening to go out of business and lay off thousands upon thousands of employees like the car industry, suggests they're doing much much better by comparison.

I think it just shows that WotC is a bit more mature to not beg for money for screwing up but taking responsibility for their actions by trying to make the money themselves. The car industry is a crock to ask for money, and the banks shouldn't have been given anything the people should have.

WotC is however asking for more from people in the cost of things that should/could be much lower.

[Pramas]

Originally Posted by Piratecat

Major layoffs during the 3e era created some award-winning game companies: Green Ronin, Malhavoc Games, and quite a few more. I can only hope that layoffs during the 4e era do the same.

I started Green Ronin early in 2000 when I was still working at WotC actually. I was laid off in 2002 and only then stepped into doing GR full time.

[Staffan]

Originally Posted by Vaeron

You have it exactly backwards. Non-essentials are the FIRST thing people cut out of their budget. During a recession people spend their money on things like food, or rent, or mortgage, or clothing, or electricity, or gas.

From what I understand, entertainment and luxuries in general take a hit during a downturn. But within the entertainment category, games do relatively well because of their high fun/price ratio. For example, the new edition of Settlers of Catan has an MSRP of $42. That's the cost of what, 3 or 4 movie tickets (not sure what movie tickets cost in the USA)? You'll get a lot more fun-hours out of buying Settlers than out of going to the movies.

[Najo]

My condolences to all of the fine people WOTC laid off. You all have done incredible work over the years and we hope to hear soon what your new plans are. This is a terrible time both of the year and during the economic crisis and our blessings are with you and your families.

As for the economy, the worse thing people can do right now is stop spending money. Typically, when recessions occur it causes a panic and people stop spending. Then the recession worsens, and its a downward spiral from there. Which means more spending cuts and company layoffs.

The main issue right now is the housing market, which is then hitting the credit and banking systems, which in turn is hurting Wall Street. The housing and banking is the first thing the new administration is correcting. If you are still employed and your monthly expenses are uneffected so far, then go about business as usual or you will make the ship sink even faster and cause more company cuts and layoffs before the government can bail us all out.

This effects everyone across the world too, as Amercia's economy direct influences the world economy. Which, to the rest of the world, as our dollar's exchange value drops from the bail out injection, you can get good deals from our exports, which gives us a flush of revenue and then helps everything get running again, which eventually helps your country too.

Anyrate, terrible news. Hopefully all will turn out well for those fine folk. In the meantime, support your local and global businesses as you have to avoid this sort of terrible things from happening again.

Peace.

[Najo]

Originally Posted by Staffan

From what I understand, entertainment and luxuries in general take a hit during a downturn. But within the entertainment category, games do relatively well because of their high fun/price ratio. For example, the new edition of Settlers of Catan has an MSRP of $42. That's the cost of what, 3 or 4 movie tickets (not sure what movie tickets cost in the USA)? You'll get a lot more fun-hours out of buying Settlers than out of going to the movies.

Not looking to argue. I always have heard that hobbies and affordable entertainment tend to do better during hard times so people can take their minds off of their troubles. Didn't the movies grow in popularity during the great depression and had people attending theater on a near weekly basis?

I am willing to bet top ten type movies, video games, hobby games and online video rentals are all doing at least pretty good if not fine.

[Faraer]

Originally Posted by Fenarisk

I'm sorry to break this to you but 99% of the people who buy and use D&D products have no idea who these people are and don't recognize/care about the names.

RPG authors are less respected than they should be because publishers play up brands and play down individual writers and their names, so they aren't dependent on them and can stop paying them with minimal harm to the all-important brands. The ENnies, which list books by publisher rather than author, are complicit in this, and the latest Wizards strategy emphasizing the D&D and Magic brands above all else is likely to worsen it. It's a nasty, manipulative practice that holds down the artistic quality of RPG writing and makes it even harder to earn a living as an RPG writer.

Consumers purchase a product and don't really notice or need to notice authors or "behind the scenes" people. I've played D&D since 2e and I have no idea who any of these people are, and still don't.

Being happy to buy writing so bland and interchangeable it could have been written by any staff writer and you can't tell the difference isn't something to be proud of. Jonathan Tweet, in particular, is one of the most talented people in roleplaying, and his firing is big news for the field as a whole.

[Mongo1967]

Originally Posted by Najo

Not looking to argue. I always have heard that hobbies and affordable entertainment tend to do better during hard times so people can take their minds off of their troubles. Didn't the movies grow in popularity during the great depression and had people attending theater on a near weekly basis?

I am willing to bet top ten type movies, video games, hobby games and online video rentals are all doing at least pretty good if not fine.

My experience, as the owner of a FLGS (in Michigan, no less), is that inexpensive entertainment tends to get hit less during an economic downturn, but it still gets hit. People simply have less discretionary income. Some of the comments here and on the WotC thread include the idea that if 4e were somehow "hot enough," then Wizards could safely ignore the economy. That's simply nonsense. Well-run businesses are always looking ahead, both in terms of obstacles and opportunities.

[Erpegis]

So, okay, I know about the crisis, but firing of the one of the chief designers of the new product, regardless of anything, seems like a shot in one's own foot. Pretty suicidal action.

[Najo]

Originally Posted by Mongo1967

My experience, as the owner of a FLGS (in Michigan, no less), is that inexpensive entertainment tends to get hit less during an economic downturn, but it still gets hit. People simply have less discretionary income. Some of the comments here and on the WotC thread include the idea that if 4e were somehow "hot enough," then Wizards could safely ignore the economy. That's simply nonsense. Well-run businesses are always looking ahead, both in terms of obstacles and opportunities.

I am a FLGS too, and I can concur most of that. The real issue for game manufacturers right now isn't the game stores and their end customers, its the source materials and distribution costs for those products. With the dollar's value taking a hit and raw goods manufacturers having issues, the cost of production is going up. I think this is one of the factors leading to D&D miniatures game being overhauled (and basically cut from production as we knew it).

[Noumenon]

Firing two top designers at least should tell you they're not already working on D&D 4.5...

[xechnao]

Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin

I know that past editions had a boom/bust cycle over its lifetime in regards to revenue, which also explains the hire/layoff cycle we have seen. I also see what apears to be a level of failure with regards to the new strategy WotC was going with to try to stop that cycle in 4E. WotC made several decisions that were supposed to level the income stream over the life of the product. The core books were intentionally limited in scope with PHBx, MMx, and DMGx coming out every year so that the first 3 books would no longer be considered all that was needed. This would to some extent match the yearly MtG product cycle where new rules/power systems are introduced each year. Then the DDI was also designed on a subscription model so that a consistant revenue stream would be coming in each month. It seems to me that these attempts to flatten the revenue stream have not worked out so far.

PnP players and fans tend to get engaged in a much more profound level than a collectible card game or a video game. There are 2 options Wotc had to be able to achieve this goal you are talking about. Either lower the level of this aspect of the game and hook people with hype at a successful launch so it builds on momentum, either struggle to achieve the almost impossible task of solidifying a stable development of the most inspiring and invoking material possible in a monthly basis.
My opinion though is that even if they had achieved to take the best possible advantage of hype and momentum they would still fail in the long run. The majority of D&D customers would not cope with a minis skirmish rpg to the level of investing there their entertainment assets instead of what competition offers such as WoW. Indeed mini games tend to have a smaller overall public that tends to invest more on an individual basis that are hooked to it for reasons even beyond just gaming (collecting, assembling, even painting etch). This is not what D&D is about though. And Gamesworkshop is already the leader here.

But even if they realize this strategy will fail they will not want to drop D&D because of the novels. What I foresee is that the next edition of D&D will try to excell in simulationist and narrativist gameplay rather than gamist. If they manage to maintain the novels interest. OTOH I do not know if the novel business has been doing badly for them lately. If this might be so, I would not be so optimist for the brand from a business perspective. It could probably go on, on a much smaller level -by this I mean cutting on projects and staff and perhaps this is what these layoffs are all about. But then this model in today's market is best suited for lines that attract because of established reasons other than what one expects from D&D (for example a favorite writer or setting). For D&D to maintain and expand its community something different is needed. And what that is I do not honestly know. Perhaps they need to return to the OGL model but then there is the bloat problem they should somehow need to eliminate. How this could be done I still have no idea. Perhaps allow each publisher to publish just a limited number of various products per set period of time -one every month. This way perhaps publishers would invest in quality rather than quantity. Just an idea -most probably a bad one

[D.Shaffer]

My condolences go out to anyone who loses their job during the holiday season, ESPECIALLY during this economic downturn. I hope you guys get back on your feet soon.

[Zil]

Originally Posted by Vaeron

You have it exactly backwards. Non-essentials are the FIRST thing people cut out of their budget. During a recession people spend their money on things like food, or rent, or mortgage, or clothing, or electricity, or gas. But the fact that WotC isn't in congress begging for $700 billion like the banks, or threatening to go out of business and lay off thousands upon thousands of employees like the car industry, suggests they're doing much much better by comparison.

Oh, I agree that people in difficult straits will certainly focus on the essentials first. However, if you can meet the essentials of food and shelter, then entertainment (and games) are things that people still spend money on, and in the context of entertainment options, RPG and board games are relatively affordable in comparison.

[Maggan]

Originally Posted by gribble

And even if they did, as I said previously, when you're offered a permanent position the expectation is that it's permanent and that you'll have until until you're not longer capable or willing to do the job. At least that's what I'd expect

As an employer, I would not be able to offer a position to any applicant that requested a position to be truly permanent.

In Sweden, there were "permanent" positions once, but they went away quite some time ago, to be replaced by "until further notice" positions, which is the most common form of employment here, I believe.

I wouldn't have any expectations that a position at any company would be really permanent in the literal sense. Rather, it would be a position that could be terminated according to the contract signed, by both parties (employer and employee).

/M

[DaveMage]

Originally Posted by Noumenon

Firing two top designers at least should tell you they're not already working on D&D 4.5...

Andy Collins is still there.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Originally Posted by Herremann the Wise

Have WotC cut into their "breeding stock" in their thinning of the herd? I can't help but feel that they have (but that is very much from a fan-based but ultimately uninformed point of view).

This kind of came up during the last round of big layoffs - one of the WoTC folks noted how many names were still there - big names that we might not have realized were still designing stuff for them. I think WoTC will be OK, I'm more concerned about the folks they let go. I'd love to see Jonathan Tweet and Dave Noonan (BTW, count me as thinking "Noonan the Barbarian" would be an excellent choice for user name) go the route of Green Ronin or Malhavoc and create new D&D-related gaming companies. I wish them well in whatever venture they choose.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Originally Posted by joethelawyer

And true what Darrin said, who said they would write for 4e? If a company canned me, call me vindictive, but the last thing I would do is produce something that helps their bottom line in any way. Pathfinder, C&C, and many other OGL options await.

On the other hand, their expertise with that system would make them some of the best choices to design 3rd party products for it. The relative lack of 3rd party support means that if someone does it right, they stand to reap big gains.