layoffs?

[RichGreen]

Really sorry to hear about this. The D&D podcast won't be the same without Dave Noonan!


Richard

[The Little Raven]

Originally Posted by Monte At Home

You have to stretch your definition of "old guard" to even apply to anyone there anymore.

What is the definition of "old guard" you're using? Why wouldn't it apply to people like Rich Baker and Bill Slavicsek, who predate most of the people laid off since 2000? Why would it include David Noonan, but not Andy Collins (who has been there about as long)?

[Fifth Element]

Originally Posted by The Little Raven

What is the definition of "old guard" you're using? Why wouldn't it apply to people like Rich Baker and Bill Slavicsek, who predate most of the people laid off since 2000? Why would it include David Noonan, but not Andy Collins (who has been there about as long)?

Isn't Kim Mohan still there as well?

[Snotlord]

This is saddening news indeed, good luck to good folks currently without a job. I hope you all land on your feet.

[Monte At Home]

Originally Posted by The Little Raven

What is the definition of "old guard" you're using? Why wouldn't it apply to people like Rich Baker and Bill Slavicsek, who predate most of the people laid off since 2000? Why would it include David Noonan, but not Andy Collins (who has been there about as long)?

If you look just two sentences before the one you quoted, you'll see that I was referring to a larger perspective than just yesterday's layoffs. Dave wasn't old guard by anyone's definition (that's no slight against him). From my point of view, old guard is Skip Williams, Penny Williams, Jeff Grubb, Steve Winter, and John Pickens (all but one of which has been laid off by the company). And those are just the people who made the move to WotC. My definition also includes people like Zeb Cook, Paul Jacquays, Dave Sutherland, and Doug Niles, whom I was fortunate enough to work with at TSR. And even with all that, it's still a young perspective.

Bill and Rich started at TSR not all that long before I did. Thus, stretching the definition, as I said, because it would then have to also include me. Which seems silly. Not in a "ooh, I'm getting old sort of way," but a "wow, there's hardly anyone here who remembers working on 2nd edition, let alone 1st" sort of way.

[occam]

Originally Posted by redsnowdude

Today makes me sad that WOTC is so financially driven that they would layoff solid game designers. I know it isn't a new practice, but it is definately a stupid one. I won't renew my DDI subscription.

Yeah, that'll show 'em. Maybe they'll lose so much money as a result of fan reaction, they can lay off more people!

If you like what DDI gives you, buy it. If you don't, don't. But don't think you'll be punishing WotC for these layoffs by withholding your money.

My condolences to all who lost their jobs today. I hope we'll still be seeing you around somewhere.

[Darkwolf71]

Originally Posted by RichGreen

Really sorry to hear about this. The D&D podcast won't be the same without Dave Noonan!


Richard

You assume that there will be a D&D podcast without Dave Noonan. Of course, I'm not saying there won't be, just that it's possible that they might scrap the feature as a whole.

[DaveMage]

Originally Posted by Carteeg_Struve

Oh. And I nominate the following as "Sig-Worthy Comment of the Year" (that's an Ennie award.. right?):

It's the Circuit City model - how's that working out for them, eh?

[Brown Jenkin]

Originally Posted by Carteeg_Struve

"And the 2009 first round draft pick for Paizo is... Jonathan Tweet!"

Wouldn't that be more of picking him up off of waivers?

Best of luck on the waiver wire to everyone.

[Brown Jenkin]

Originally Posted by occam

Yeah, that'll show 'em. Maybe they'll lose so much money as a result of fan reaction, they can lay off more people!

If you like what DDI gives you, buy it. If you don't, don't. But don't think you'll be punishing WotC for these layoffs by withholding your money.

So how do we punish them? Should we spend more money on their products, because that seems more like a reward.

[Dracorat]

This could be great actually.

Do you really think their exit from the company is an exit from the industry?

Maybe some shackles just got removed...

[RichGreen]

Originally Posted by Darkwolf71

You assume that there will be a D&D podcast without Dave Noonan. Of course, I'm not saying there won't be, just that it's possible that they might scrap the feature as a whole.

Fair point. It would be a shame for it to go though.

[Umbran]

Originally Posted by Monte At Home

From a larger perspective than just yesterday, it's become clear that WotC's become a company that not only doesn't value experience, it avoids it.

No offense, Monte, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of current economic events on business.

[Zaukrie]

It's cold. It's heartless. But, I gotta say, publicly held companies are not supposed to be "hearted". They are obligated to do what is in the best interest of stock price, basically (that is a simplification).

Also, all of you voting with your pocketbook over this, what do you eat, drive, insure yourself with, what government services do you use, basically, how do you do anything if you don't buy from companies that lay off good people?

I frankly don't agree with their style. I think it is stupid, in the long run, to lay off the people that know the company and the history and what works and what doesn't. OTOH, it is also stupid to lay off all the new people, with new ideas, and a new perspective. Leading a company and making these types of decisions isn't easy, nor is it fun.

I feel terrible for the people that just lost their jobs. They've given me years of fun (or in some cases, for the newer D&D people, confidence things were getting better). Good luck to everyone in this situation.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Umbran

No offense, Monte, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of current economic events on business.

In fairness, he's seen a lot of his friends and associates get the axe at WotC while they were doing a good job.

I mean, I agree in theory - the current economic climate means that businesses need to cut as many costs as possible as soon as possible - but I can understand a little bit of disillusionment.

-O

[Friadoc]

While I am not an expert, in any stretch of the imagination, with respects to the economy, I have experienced two surprise layoffs in the past 3-4 years, with the first coming while at HP, back in April '05, and again at Micron, back in June '07, and then a contract not being renewed in April of this year. So, I figured that I would share some of my experience with those who have just been laid off from WotC, so that they can avoid some of my own pitfalls in this experience.

First off, if you can avoid it, at all, do not let yourself become mired down in the bog of feeling downtrodden, because it is, very much, hard to get out of that thing. Layoffs suck, big time, but it is better than having been fired, because fired often means they had ground to do so, thus they can deny you various state benefits. Laid off, though, means you qualify instantly for various benefits, programs, and what not. So, if possibly, maintain some forward momentum, or plan for it. While it is the holidays and it sucks to be laid of at the gate of Christmas, plan around it and try and keep the focus forward.

Second, either make a trip to the Washington State Employment Security Department, or hit their website, and apply, immediately, for your benefits, even if you do not feel you need them just yet. You have paid into it and it is your right to access it, guilt free. Too often have I seen folk who feel bad or dirty for accepting unemployment benefits, do not be that person. You and your HR footprint paid for all of those benefits, for years the rollover from which has gone into the state's coffers and I doubt they felt guilty about it, so you should not, either. Think of it as a conditional security account or savings account that not only gives you monies, but access to very useful programs, aides, and assistance. You are not on the state's dole, regardless of what some folks say, as you are simply accessing the money that you, yourself, put into the system via working for an employer.

If any advice I give is important, it is, very much, those first two items, as they are the ones that can hurt you the worse, be it through becoming mired down under the feeling of losing your job and the trend toward depression and inaction, or the missing out on monies and programs that could have helped you out, a lot. I messed up on the second one, recently, and I missed out on the chance to drastically affect where I am at now, as I am still unemployed, and because I was not proactive in my acceptance of programs and monies, I lost out on a timed benefit that could have had me in a much better place, with respect to future education and career options, simply by feeling guilty about accessing my benefits cache.

Do not be me, seriously. It is there as part of the assurances given to the American worker, regardless of what some political ideologues and mavens might want us to think, via various sound bites.

Third, avoid slashing perks immediately, as it can put you in a feeling of being destitute when you are not. Now I am not advising you to go to the spa, daily, or live beyond your means with extravagancies, but still rent or go to the movies, buy an entertainment product, eat guilt foods, and so forth. While it can stretch your dollar out vastly to jump on the "tightening of our belts" train of thought, it can also cause a person to feel worse off than they really are. Some level of creature comforts being maintained is a good thing, it helps with the morale, big time. Heck, the monthly Paizo care package I get has done more for me than stretching my dollar ever could. It is silly, I know, but sometimes silly helps.

Lastly, do not bottle things up, at all. Vent to friends and family, if they would hear it, even if the venting is to a private list that no one else will ever hear, as it helps, a lot. I know, for a fact, that if it was not for my Friend's list on my LiveJournal, this past two years, or so, would have been unbearably depressing. Commiserating can be a goodly thing right now, as it lets the deep feelings blow out and gives you a sense of not being alone, even if, like some of us, you are.

It is the end of a job, not the end of the world, and a lot of you are more wanted and talented folk than I, so you should be just fine. Seriously, all it takes is some stalwartness, positive thought, plans, and good friends to make it through this, even if you have to retreat to a small town in Southern Oregon.

Okay, that last bit is me and although it is a nice town, you really don't need to be me, even if it would populate my gaming table with some good folks.

Best wishes, thoughts, and hopes to you and yours during the most recent unpleasantness.

[Zaruthustran]

Layoffs suck, but let's not make this into more than it is. Turnover and new talent is generally healthy for a company, particularly for companies that depend on new ideas and innovation.

If TSR/WotC had never hired new talent, we wouldn't have had the products we've enjoyed over the years. Think about it: Tweet, Noonan, and even Monte were all new hires at some point. And as others have said, we as game consumers have also benefited from WotC departures (voluntary or involuntary): Green Ronin, Malhavoc, Privateer Press, etc.

Again: layoffs SUCK. They just do. And this particular round caught a lot of quality people. But let's not compound the suckiness by drawing sensational conclusions from what is simply a normal business practice.

[JDragon]

Very sorry to hear about the layoffs. Its never a good thing, but it really sucks this time of year. Having been though it myself.

Also, gotta say I agree with Monte 100% as well.

JD

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Wow, Johnathan Tweet is like, my RPG Hero. And I've come to associate David Noonan's name with the better 3E products.

I have to say, in my opinion the people who made 3E great are all gone from WoTC now. If I was more invested in 4E I'd be worried. Fortunately, I have enough unused 3E stuff to last me for at least the next decade!

For that, I'd like to thank all the former WoTC staffers out there. Monte, Skip, John, Sean -- here's to you!

Ken

[Friadoc]

Originally Posted by Umbran

No offense, Monte, but I think perhaps you underestimate the impact of current economic events on business.

While there could be some underestimation there, I think there is also a track record on WotC's part, too, with respect of layoffs and their timing. Without knowing all the inner workings of things, what I am about to posit is nothing more than speculation and assumption, as well as baseless conjecture, but was the choice to simply cut folk, or was their thought given to across the board reductions and cuts?

Odds are it was just a choice to cut some of the more experienced folk, with longtime in, since it not only gets ride of a modest salary/wage, but also their HR footprint, too. Generally, depending on the company, you can take an employee's earnings and double it, sometimes triple it, and you get the idea of their total HR footprint, with the exception of executives, as those folk do not always make as much sense, with respect to awards, incentives, and pay.

There use to be a day when companies would do across the board paycuts, so as to help with the bottom line, but those days are further and further in the past, compared to today.

While I am sure the current economy had some impact, I am also pretty sure that this is more of a yearly thing, too. Perhaps a handful of names might not have been on the list, had the economy not tanked, continued to tank, over the past couple of years, but I think it still would have happened, to a degree, sadly.