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Just how did someone in Japan get the book anyway, and can it be trusted?
Japan or the person?
Historically, most of these advance leakers are telling the truth. The fakers usually slip in something plausible-yet-controversial to generate lots of hits.
Leaving out the Planescape detritus makes me more likely to pick this book up. Thanks, WotC!
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Fun fact; at D&D Experience, we saw the Shadow Demon in some book somewhere. The Shadow Demon is in the pre-4e "Monsters and More" PDF. I wonder how close to the pre-4e one it is.
I hope it isn't much like the one previewed then, because that was quite a long way from the original conception
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Originally Posted by justanobody
Yeah, well maybe, but who cares if he didn't also illustrate it! =P
But know I now who to ask why it is weaker AC in light (day/torch), but oddly immune to lightning of all kinds.....I would think it should get some kind of temporary AC adjustment as if under torch light (maybe AC6 instead of 5 since lightning is quicker) for a round or something from being in the presence of such intense/focus light.
Hey - I did an illustration! wasn't my fault they didn't use it. Grumble grumble
You're overthinking the whole 'light' thing with lightning. Otherwise you'd have to do the same for fireballs too (even more so). As it is, those in the know could cast light spells against it to damage it.
Cheers
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The Japanese branch of Amazon often ships before the American street date. I remember SpringsBoundlessThorns' having posted about other books before release.
There should be a law against that!
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Originally Posted by Plane Sailing
You're overthinking the whole 'light' thing with lightning. Otherwise you'd have to do the same for fireballs too (even more so). As it is, those in the know could cast light spells against it to damage it.
Cheers
Yeah sure when also don't forget to overthink that light = fireball and the thing is oh I don't know...immune to fire, so working like a fireball means it is immune to it too!
As a huge spelljammer fan...(and someone who can't buy new books till after the holidays) I would love if anyone sees or hears more on how much spelljamer stuff there is...are we talking a chapter, a page, a paragraph...a sentence...some art???
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Planescape
It should be given special award to Die Vecna, Die: a module that manages to trash no less than THREE different settings (Greyhawk, Ravenloft, Planescape) in the course of one module.
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Originally Posted by Remathilis
Those of you who fretted that monsters have too many hp and fights take too long: meet the barbarian. The ULTIMATE "Lets speed this combat up, I need to whiz" class!
Arvandor, the Verdant Isles
Carceri, the Red Prison
Celestia, the Radiant Throne
Chernoggar, the Iron Fortress (and home plane of Bladelings)
Hestavar, the Bright City
Kalandurren, the Darkened Pillars
The Nine Hells of Baator
Pandemonium, the Howling Depths
Pluton, the Gray Waste
The White Desert of Shom
Tu"narath, City of the Githyanki
Tytherion, the Endless Night
Good news for Old Schoolers: The Great Wheel as interpreted by the new alignment system is laid out. Very nice!
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As a fan of Planescape this actually gives me some hope there will be a Planescape Campaign Setting. Since with only a small amount of info on Sigil, no mention of the Mercykiller (come on let that be our first preview of Planescape Setting) and such. It gives lots of space to be built into to make what is right now a more brief description of the Planes into a whole Setting.
I really want to get my hands on the PPs to see what they are all about.
As a HUGE PS fan, I don't really care that they didn't have more PS info in here. Do it right or not at all, indeed.
I'm interested about planes they cover, how much detail, what kind of locations, etc...
Speaking only for myself, it's not so much Planescape hate, it's more just being really tired being told that the new stuff sucks because they don't properly follow books that have been out of print for over a decade. Who cares?
It's the whole "They destroyed Forgotten Realms" crap all over again.
It's a new system. They've SPECIFICALLY SAID that they are not going to follow canon but are going to reinterpret everything. Judging the quality of a product by how much it differs from out of print canon is ludicrous in light of the fact that they have said that old canon is not going to be followed.
The whole kerfuffle about the City of Brass being the oldest city is a perfect microcosm of the whole thing. If you got into D&D in the past 10 years or less, then Planescape completely doesn't matter to you. Why should we continue to be beholden to material that's been dead and gone for years?
Judge the product on its own merits. If it sucks because there isn't enough information, or poorly edited or the art is crap, then fair enough. Books suck. But, claiming it sucks because it ignores Supplement 8321xY page 213 subparagraph 2 is a big pet peeve for me.
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The whole kerfuffle about the City of Brass being the oldest city is a perfect microcosm of the whole thing. If you got into D&D in the past 10 years or less, then Planescape completely doesn't matter to you.
Oh really? I've been playing for well under 10 years, TYVM.
*and on a side note, I don't recall anything in the 4e previews actually calling the CoB the oldest city on the planes. I think that may have just been a hypothetical tossed out in a post here on Enworld about ways to use the city.
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Judge the product on its own merits. If it sucks because there isn't enough information, or poorly edited or the art is crap, then fair enough. Books suck. But, claiming it sucks because it ignores Supplement 8321xY page 213 subparagraph 2 is a big pet peeve for me.
I think it's a perfectly justified metric to compare the 4e MotP to comparable products like the 3e MotP or the various Planescape supplements, keeping in mind things like scope as allowed by page count etc. But it's silly to judge the MotP in a vacuum, ignoring that previous takes on the same or similar subjects existed.
And FWIW, I'm not asking that the 4e MotP adhere to any Planescape canon. It's not the same cosmology, not the same setting, and depending on perspective, it's a different game in many ways, so I don't expect it to be faithful to PS canon. But I'd prefer it do its own thing rather than shamble down with Igor to the Planescape product line and go about graverobbing by moonlight to make some sort of planar frankenstein back at the lab.
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Well personally as a PS fan I am looking forward to seeing how they reinterpret things. I could give a rat's ass to the old canon I would simply like to see how they have altered things for a new Planescape. Which is one reason I am hoping for a Planescape Campaign Setting so got a two books devoted to it, so lots to see and have fun with their reinterpretations.
*Shrugs shoulders* Maybe I am just a odd kinda of fan. But I personally enjoy seeing how different people view something I enjoy. Sure, I may not like the direction, but disliking because it is different seems daft to me.
Speaking only for myself, it's not so much Planescape hate, it's more just being really tired being told that the new stuff sucks because they don't properly follow books that have been out of print for over a decade. Who cares?
On these boards? It looks like Shemmy cares. I think he might be the only one that I've really seen, or at least the most passionate one. Judging from his posts, it just seems like he doesn't like 4e's decision to cut ties with the older edition material 'cuz the older edition material was good for him and didn't really need to be supplanted with something new.
I don't get the impression that it's a very...large number of people who do care. Most people here (and most people who like 4e, quite obviously) don't. I mean, I really don't, and I'm a deeply avowed PS fan.
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It's the whole "They destroyed Forgotten Realms" crap all over again.
It's basically the same argument, but I wouldn't necessarily call it crap. It's totally valid to bring that up as a reason not to like the new stuff.
It just kind of surprised me, I guess, that so many posters come out with "I LOVE THE FACT THAT THEY DON'T MENTION PLANESCAPE AT ALL!"
....but still, they diagram the Great Wheel, they mention the Lady of Pain and Sigil, and one of the PP's might very well be a faction-relevant one...so maybe they did?
Does...does that mean you don't like it now?
I get being fed up with the argument (it is kind of an old one by this point, though that doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be discussed), but I'm not so sure I get reacting to that exhaustion with something so...hostile? I dunno, I could easily be seeing hate where there is none, though.
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The whole kerfuffle about the City of Brass being the oldest city is a perfect microcosm of the whole thing. If you got into D&D in the past 10 years or less, then Planescape completely doesn't matter to you. Why should we continue to be beholden to material that's been dead and gone for years?
There are a few good reasons to keep in the old stuff. Listing them would probably derail the thread, though. It's a choice, with consequences, benefits and rewards. Just like ditching the old stuff. There's hardly a clear-cut right and wrong in the case. It's more of a preference. And part of the reason for ENWorld is so we can all discuss our preferences.
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Judge the product on its own merits. If it sucks because there isn't enough information, or poorly edited or the art is crap, then fair enough. Books suck. But, claiming it sucks because it ignores Supplement 8321xY page 213 subparagraph 2 is a big pet peeve for me.
So do all these old-school references in the product (Mercykillers, the Great Wheel, Sigil, the Lady of Pain, Bladelings, most of the monsters) turn you off of it?
I get it being a pet peeve (minis do it for me ), but did you ever think that maybe disregarding a beloved past is a pet peeve for Shemmy (or anyone else who is constantly harping about the changes that I've missed)?
It's totally okay to love the book for doing something new, and it seems like it *is* doing new things. But the PS hate seemed a bit mean-spirited to me, a bit "I love the fact that PS fans are crying right now, so I will buy the book for Schadenfreude!"
I could be totally barking up the wrong tree on it. It was just a passing observation. And I did want to point out that I am one big PS fan who is okay with the changes so far (even though I can cite you Supplement 8321xY page 213 subparagraph 2 if I wanted to).
I was hoping they devoted some of their time to covering more on some of weirder and stranger locations, they could have devoted a chapter on the "Anomalous Planes" like Far Realms and Plane of Dreams.
Well at least MoP 4e is like MoP 3e in that it's a toolkit and not like the failure that was the Planar Handbook. I don't think anyone liked having so many pages wasted on Touchstones. And while I feel that 4e should eventually reintroduce magical locations, they should put it somewhere else like a DMG.
I love Planescape, but this time iīll be smart and avoid the flamewars by the "keepers of the true PS lore" which are bound to follow. I was burned enough with FR: "You donīt know jack! They should have not changed what i didnīt want to be changed, because that is was never should be changed! Why didnīt they just change what i didnīt care about to be changed? It makes no sense!"
No, thanks. Iīll play old Planescape while happily using the new one if itīs any good.
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Last edited by Keefe the Thief; 5th December 2008 at 08:05 AM..
I'm kind of relieved that 4e isn't half-assedly bringing Planescape back in its MotP, for two reasons.
First, like Kamikaze Midget, I'd prefer to see it done well or not done at all.
Secondly, most of the stuff that made Planescape the setting so interesting - the factions, belief shaping the universe, planar cultures, focus on alignment and elemental symmetries, and tons of planar history and background - made using Planescape as a planar cosmology for a non-PS game a terrible chore.
So, a MotP that is mostly separate from Planescape - in terms of themes, fluff and crunch - is IMO a good thing for both 4e in general and for PS fans, because the setting doesn't have to be fitted into a generic cosmology.
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It has 5 pages on Sigil, you better stop yourself from buying the book now.
I'm looking for less. It's silly to think there's none.
Also, I don't hate everything in Planescape, by far. I think it's a setting of its time, though, and I never wanted to take the time to learn all the various lore (much like 3e FR). It was way too much baggage for me to leverage into a workable game - especially when, deep in my heart, I've been a fan of 1e's inherently hostile planes.
I didn't want "The Big Sites of Interest like cities", I wanted little unique sites that aren't very big, but are great adventure sites.
I would expect that, because many people want great adventure sites, WotC is hoping to sell those separately in modules and/or supplements.
But wouldn't more people be disappointed if the book didn't have the big sites? It would be a poor overview of the multiverse if it didn't include the largest "cosmographical" features.
Judging from his posts, it just seems like he doesn't like 4e's decision to cut ties with the older edition material 'cuz the older edition material was good for him and didn't really need to be supplanted with something new.
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