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I didn't want "The Big Sites of Interest like cities", I wanted little unique sites that aren't very big, but are great adventure sites.
Sorry, couldn't resist. Nerd point if you get the reference.
__________________ I have a gaming blog - about D&D4, roguelikes and various gaming
"Rule 2: Give the players opportunities to use their cool abilities, because a neat class ability or spell that doesn't get used isn't fun. For this reason, I tried to cut off PC limbs for months after Velendo got access to regeneration." - Piratecat, Piratecat's Story Hour
Last edited by Hellzon; 5th December 2008 at 08:45 PM..
I'm looking for less. It's silly to think there's none.
Also, I don't hate everything in Planescape, by far. I think it's a setting of its time, though, and I never wanted to take the time to learn all the various lore (much like 3e FR). It was way too much baggage for me to leverage into a workable game - especially when, deep in my heart, I've been a fan of 1e's inherently hostile planes.
-O
Which strikes me as odd that you're hyped up over the 4e MotP but disliked Planescape. Planescape's take on the planes opened them up for lower level PCs, but it didn't remove the inherent hostility of those planes. You still spontaneously incinerated in Positive Energy, you'd still be killed for waltzing into the Abyss 99% of the time, etc. The planes were terribly hostile, especially the lower ones, and the setting specifically acknowledged that and expected players to know their limits per that survivability, or to approach those risks as intelligently as possible to allow them to survive. There was even a line in the box set that said something to the effect of "If your players are in Gehenna, running from a pack of yugoloths screaming for their heads, they're approaching things rather wrong."
4e on the other hand seems to go about the planes by making it a place for PCs to adventure* but also removing much of that hostility because it was an impediment to adventuring. You can't kill monsters in the dungeon if the dungeon is going to incinerate or drown you just by its very environment, etc. They're taking a hand-holding approach to the planes, which to my mind, is even worse for someone like you who appreciated the 1e planes which were very much a high level only playground (as I read into its presentation).
*(perhaps focused a bit too much on adventurability beyond making a realistic setting, but for another topic another time...)
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
Which strikes me as odd that you're hyped up over the 4e MotP but disliked Planescape.
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4e on the other hand seems to go about the planes by making it a place for PCs to adventure* but also removing much of that hostility because it was an impediment to adventuring. You can't kill monsters in the dungeon if the dungeon is going to incinerate or drown you just by its very environment, etc. They're taking a hand-holding approach to the planes, which to my mind, is even worse for someone like you who appreciated the 1e planes which were very much a high level only playground (as I read into its presentation).
No, I'm not actually hyped up about them Cosmology has always been one of my last concerns for a game setting. In fact, all the previews relating to cosmology almost turned me off of 4e - not because I didn't like it, but because I simply didn't care.
Now that I've seen 4e in action, I actually would like more info on the Feywild and Shadowfell. The rest of it, I'm indifferent to. Still, the 4e MoP may change my mind, and I'm willing to give it the chance.
Were you chuffed when he got such a cool role in the cartoon?
As an unrelated aside...this. Is. Awesome.
My daughter is a huge fan of the D&D cartoon. Each new D&D book that I get, her first question is; "Is Venger in this one!?" If I can tell her the Shadow Demon is in Daddy's New Book, that'll be almost as good...
As for the planes being less lethal...I don't see it as them making the planes less deadly, overall. It looks to me like they're trying to make them deadly, but in more entertaining ways. No more insta-kill trap-planes. No more "You step through the portal? Take 100d6 damage from the fireball. You die."
I also like the amount of Planescape references, but lack of overt planescape content. You can retrofit a lot of old planescape material to the new setting, but you're not shoehorned into it if you don't want Planescape in your 4E. I think the reason that they're still dipping into the Planescape well after 10 years is that they haven't come up with anything better. I had hoped that the new MotP would be that Something Better, or the start of it at least, but I'm OK with the fact that it' doesn't seem to be.
SimCity 2000. The transit advisor will flip out in allcaps if you reduce funding to his department. That picture is photoshopped, but he's just as ridiculous in the real dialogue boxes.
(Pardon me for not commenting on MOTP, but it's my favourite book for any edition and I'd buy it if it was printed on toilet paper. So there.)
__________________ I have a gaming blog - about D&D4, roguelikes and various gaming
"Rule 2: Give the players opportunities to use their cool abilities, because a neat class ability or spell that doesn't get used isn't fun. For this reason, I tried to cut off PC limbs for months after Velendo got access to regeneration." - Piratecat, Piratecat's Story Hour
No, I'm not actually hyped up about them Cosmology has always been one of my last concerns for a game setting. In fact, all the previews relating to cosmology almost turned me off of 4e - not because I didn't like it, but because I simply didn't care.
Now that I've seen 4e in action, I actually would like more info on the Feywild and Shadowfell. The rest of it, I'm indifferent to. Still, the 4e MoP may change my mind, and I'm willing to give it the chance.
-O
This.
I think Faerie Realm/Realm of Shadowy spooky (isntead of NEGATIVE ENERGY SUCKS YOUR SOUL DIE) is really intriguing. Also, Elemental chaos is very trippy. Vertical rivers of ice and fiery windstorms and floating rocks and stuff.
SimCity 2000. The transit advisor will flip out in allcaps if you reduce funding to his department. That picture is photoshopped, but he's just as ridiculous in the real dialogue boxes.
(Pardon me for not commenting on MOTP, but it's my favourite book for any edition and I'd buy it if it was printed on toilet paper. So there.)
Which strikes me as odd that you're hyped up over the 4e MotP but disliked Planescape. Planescape's take on the planes opened them up for lower level PCs, but it didn't remove the inherent hostility of those planes.
Read post response again. It's not the presentation of the planes - it's all the other minutia regarding factions, cities, historical events and persons, etc. which can cramp a DM's style, or just feel like a chore to get up to speed on, much like running a FR game, as Obryn said. Not that it does for everyone, but for some, it does (one reason I never got into PS myself.)
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You still spontaneously incinerated in Positive Energy, you'd still be killed for waltzing into the Abyss 99% of the time, etc. The planes were terribly hostile, especially the lower ones, and the setting specifically acknowledged that and expected players to know their limits per that survivability, or to approach those risks as intelligently as possible to allow them to survive.
One thing about PS, though... it presented the Planes as frequently hostile because that's how the current edition had already presented them. PS was, in effect, constrained by those previous presentations, and simply delved into them in more detail.
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4e on the other hand seems to go about the planes by making it a place for PCs to adventure* but also removing much of that hostility because it was an impediment to adventuring. You can't kill monsters in the dungeon if the dungeon is going to incinerate or drown you just by its very environment, etc. They're taking a hand-holding approach to the planes, which to my mind, is even worse for someone like you who appreciated the 1e planes which were very much a high level only playground (as I read into its presentation).
Most of the planes are still very much still intended for higher levels in 4E as well. Creatures are certainly still powerful and hostile in the Abyss and Nine Hells. I see plenty of high level elementals for the Elemental Chaos.
I'm just glad it's no longer possible to have a TPK on the Elemental Plane of Fire with just a simple Dispel Magic...
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
I love Planescape, but this time i´ll be smart and avoid the flamewars by the "keepers of the true PS lore" which are bound to follow. I was burned enough with FR: "You don´t know jack! They should have not changed what i didn´t want to be changed, because that is was never should be changed! Why didn´t they just change what i didn´t care about to be changed? It makes no sense!"
No, thanks. I´ll play old Planescape while happily using the new one if it´s any good.
See, to me, this is the perfect attitude to take. The new planar material in no way invalidates the old. Pick what you like and work with it. Just don't start bitching because they are reinvisioning the old - or as Shemeska so vividly points out - sending Igor down to bring back the corpse. Kinda points to how Shemeska views changing any old canon doesn't it?
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Accusing people who don't agree with your opinion of wanting flamewars while happily flaming away? That's a perfect attitude?
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The new planar material in no way invalidates the old. Pick what you like and work with it. Just don't start bitching because they are reinvisioning the old - or as Shemeska so vividly points out - sending Igor down to bring back the corpse. Kinda points to how Shemeska views changing any old canon doesn't it?
Re-read what I posted because that's not at all what I mean. Please don't misrepresent my take on this, intentionally or not. How could you get that from what I'd posted, seriously.
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Originally Posted by me
And FWIW, I'm not asking that the 4e MotP adhere to any Planescape canon. It's not the same cosmology, not the same setting, and depending on perspective, it's a different game in many ways, so I don't expect it to be faithful to PS canon. But I'd prefer it do its own thing rather than shamble down with Igor to the Planescape product line and go about graverobbing by moonlight to make some sort of planar frankenstein back at the lab.
As I said, I'm not saying to avoid any changes at all (I loved Faction War for God's sake, and many Planescape fans think it destroyed much of the setting), what I'm saying is if you're going to reinvision material, reinvision it fully and also create new material of your own. Don't just rip out some previous concepts and then present them in exceedingly low detail, making it appear half-assed (and we're talking generalities here to some extent since neither of us have read the 4e MotP, but we're talking my preferences on such topics anyways just broadly). It's a new cosmology, I don't expect it to remain faithful to any Planescape lore, but it should stand on its own rather than atop a pyre of prior concepts.
__________________ "I can just see the 4e adventure anthology "Tale from the Limited Staircase"." - Ken Marable
Shemeska, almost every single post you've made about planar material for the past year as it regards 4e has been negative. "They've ruined Yugoloths" "They're graverobbing the setting" "Why can't they be original" on and on.
It's the same as listening to Nightfall going on and on about Scarred Lands. Yes, I get that you are a HUGE Planescape fan. I understand that. I also know that you know far and away more about PS than I will ever know. I accept that perfectly well.
But, when the developers FLAT OUT STATE that the 4e version of the planes is NOT a rehash of earlier edition, but a reinvisioning, judging it based on earlier canon is ridiculous. It's like saying that Smallville sucks because it changes Superman canon. Or Casino Royale sucks because it changes Bond canon. Or saying that the Savage Tide sucks because it places the Isle of Dread in Greyhawk and changes a large amount of the island's history.
It can't change canon. It's part of a separate canon that's inspired by similar sources, but, while it might borrow names and whatnot, isn't linked in any way, shape or form to earlier canon.
Judge it based on what it is rather than trying to tie it to something that it was never meant to be.
__________________ Currently running: Sufficiently Advanced over Maptool. Soon to change. If you'd like to join in a short 3-8 session campaign for various systems, drop by our forums.
I double-dog-dare you to make your game sound super cool without comparing it to other editions. - paraphrased from Umbran.
Whoever wrote the entry on the Keepers must have been watching Dark City. Certainly the Keepers were MIBs, possibly from an new unknown plane, but they didn't have anything like that city they were keeping in previous canon.
Well at least Dark City err... Gloomwrought and Keepers go well together.
Can't say much about more of the content until I actually see it.
On these boards? It looks like Shemmy cares. I think he might be the only one that I've really seen, or at least the most passionate one. Judging from his posts, it just seems like he doesn't like 4e's decision to cut ties with the older edition material 'cuz the older edition material was good for him and didn't really need to be supplanted with something new.
I don't get the impression that it's a very...large number of people who do care. Most people here (and most people who like 4e, quite obviously) don't. I mean, I really don't, and I'm a deeply avowed PS fan.
Shemmy is not the only one who cares. I care. Planescape was a favorite campaign setting of mine back in 2e and I really dislike the fact that WotC has left the PS canon behind. It pisses me off.
Still, I can understand why WotC might want to try something new. But don't throw away the old completely. That's a disservice to Planescape's fans.
I would have preferred if this new MotP was a much thicker book with more planar options. Make it a mix of the old and new. Put two or three cosmologies into the book and give a DM a choice. Sure, make the new cosmology the focus but give the canon its due. And add something else unique like a expanded version of one of the other example cosmologies from the 3e MotP.
WotC should have made the 4e MotP more like Malhavoc's Beyond Countless Doorways. (An awesome book.) Make a MotP that appeals to more than the hardcore 4e fans. If they were to do that, then maybe I might have a glimmer of interest in 4e.
But I do not. Because they have done a disservice to me. And I'm not happy about it.
Just my opinion,
Knightfall1972
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
Avatar by Sialia
Hey now, don't lump all Planescape fans into feeling "disservice" I am quite excited to see how WoTC reinvents, reimagines, reinterprets and completely makes new Planescape and Planes in general.
So far from what I have seen of MoTP it does just what I want it shows elements of the past but doesn't simply stay with it. But expands and goes in new directions, shows a different way of doing things. I find that as a fan is quite a lot of fun.
I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.
Hey now, don't lump all Planescape fans into feeling "disservice" I am quite excited to see how WoTC reinvents, reimagines, reinterprets and completely makes new Planescape and Planes in general.
So far from what I have seen of MoTP it does just what I want it shows elements of the past but doesn't simply stay with it. But expands and goes in new directions, shows a different way of doing things. I find that as a fan is quite a lot of fun.
I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.
Fallen Seraph, I understand your concern about not being lumped into a greater whole. I apologize if you felt I spoke for you (or insulted you) in any manner.
As a fellow Planescape fan, I realize that not every fan's Planescape is the same. It's just when something that I care about gets revised to the point that it doesn't feel te same then I tend to get a little over zealous about it.
Personally, I use a strange variant of Planescape for my World of Kulan campaign setting (i.e. Mirrored Cosmology). Still, that's not the core. It might be outdated nostalgia, but I want the Great Wheel to survive (at least, in some official form). Perhaps it is the diehard Greyhawk in me. Maybe if the Great Wheel lives on (officially) then Greyhawk can live on.
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Originally Posted by Shemeska
As I said, I'm not saying to avoid any changes at all (I loved Faction War for God's sake, and many Planescape fans think it destroyed much of the setting), what I'm saying is if you're going to reinvision material, reinvision it fully and also create new material of your own. Don't just rip out some previous concepts and then present them in exceedingly low detail, making it appear half-assed (and we're talking generalities here to some extent since neither of us have read the 4e MotP, but we're talking my preferences on such topics anyways just broadly). It's a new cosmology, I don't expect it to remain faithful to any Planescape lore, but it should stand on its own rather than atop a pyre of prior concepts.
"What Shemmy said."
__________________ Robert Blezard I write; therefore, I am!
D&D v.3.5, d20 Modern, OSRIC, Pathfinder, True20... OGL Forever! Walk the Road
Avatar by Sialia
But I do not. Because they have done a disservice to me. And I'm not happy about it.
I think that's a fair enough criticism. I daresay that there's more past-references in the 4e MotP than I expected (Mercykillers? The Great Wheel given a nod?), though. I wouldn't quite come out and say they've realized a mistake quite yet, but I think they're being more careful than they were in the Core or with FR.
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Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph
I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.
My PS4e game isn't too badly affected by the 4e changes. The Blood War goes underground, Celestia's angels get a new name, I kick the chronology forward a few thousand years, no one cares. I don't change what the setting is about, and I make 4e serve that purpose.
Or, I would, but 4e *exhausts* me to write for, so I'm barely able to churn out my next session...
But I think it's possible to respect the history while embracing the changes for PS. It certainly doesn't need to turn out like FR did...
Oh no feelings of being insulted here. Lol, as a passionate Planescape fan myself I can understand the feeling.
While I haven't seen any indepth posts yet by people who have the books. There is apparently some mention of how to work the Great Wheel into 4e. Perhaps that could be of some interest to you?
Hehe, yeah... That could play a role to perhaps for me. I find 4e the easiest to write with so having lots of reimagining and such just give me more to work with.
Last edited by Fallen Seraph; 6th December 2008 at 09:11 AM..
Cosmology has always been one of my last concerns for a game setting. In fact, all the previews relating to cosmology almost turned me off of 4e - not because I didn't like it, but because I simply didn't care.
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