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This is junk. I acts just like an MMO character creator, and visualizer and linking it to Game Table will make it even more so.
Have you played many MMOs? I'm thinking you haven't, as most MMOs don't have a character creation screen apart from selecting race/class/appearance.
The only 'MMO' character generator I've seen like it is the chargen GUI used by Gemstone III, a text based MUD that's over a decade old.
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
Are you trying to tell me no MMO uses things like a set of scores, and abilities you can pick from? Have you played many MMos yourself?
Are the ones you play all the orcs have the same strength as each other that can never be improved? Do your items have little to no impact on the amount of daamge that can be done because you are an orc?
Are you trying to tell me no MMO uses things like a set of scores, and abilities you can pick from? Have you played many MMos yourself?
Are the ones you play all the orcs have the same strength as each other that can never be improved? Do your items have little to no impact on the amount of daamge that can be done because you are an orc?
???
How does MMOs having characteristics and inventory management indicate that the D&D Character Builder looks like an MMO Chargen. Those are completely unrelated ideas. If your argument is 'RPGs and MMOs both have ability scores, abilities/powers and items of varying power levels', well, yeah, obviously. But then you might as well be telling me the Pope is Catholic, as well. That has nothing to do with the appearance/function of the Character Builder versus MMO chargen. Advancement of a character in an MMO != Character Builder.
Also, for the record, MMOs I've played:
Gemstone III, Dragonrealms (The first two are paid MUDs, but had playerbases in the thousands in the late 90s), Neverwinter Nights (on AOL), Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Phantasy Star Online, Ragnarok Online, Lineage 2, Guild Wars (More of a quasi-Diablo clone IMO), World of Warcraft (Through Burning Crusade), Silkroad, Age of Conan, Perfect World Online.
Pretty sure I'm reasonably familiar with their trappings.
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
How does MMOs having characteristics and inventory management indicate that the D&D Character Builder looks like an MMO Chargen. Those are completely unrelated ideas. If your argument is 'RPGs and MMOs both have ability scores, abilities/powers and items of varying power levels', well, yeah, obviously. But then you might as well be telling me the Pope is Catholic, as well. That has nothing to do with the appearance/function of the Character Builder versus MMO chargen. Advancement of a character in an MMO != Character Builder.
Also, for the record, MMOs I've played:
Gemstone III, Dragonrealms (The first two are paid MUDs, but had playerbases in the thousands in the late 90s), Neverwinter Nights (on AOL), Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Phantasy Star Online, Ragnarok Online, Lineage 2, Guild Wars (More of a quasi-Diablo clone IMO), World of Warcraft (Through Burning Crusade), Silkroad, Age of Conan, Perfect World Online.
Pretty sure I'm reasonably familiar with their trappings.
The closest the character generator comes to in the few CRPGs and MMORPGs I know is the Never Winter Nights character creation process. But whereas the NWN system is incredibly inflexible and only allows me to go step by step, level by level, the 4E Character Generator allows me to freely pick what I want to do, when I want it to do. Sure, it also has the "Wizard" feel of going through step by step, but you can bypass that. And it still tracks for me which steps I haven't done yet, announcing whether I've feats or powers to select.
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I wonder how the generator handles the default retraining of powers at certain levels. Unfortunately, this only happens in Paragon Tier and upwards, not in the first 3 levels.
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I wonder how the generator handles the default retraining of powers at certain levels. Unfortunately, this only happens in Paragon Tier and upwards, not in the first 3 levels.
Exactly. These things need to be beta tested as well so the core material is ready and the extra stuff from splatbooks can be worked into the system later.
@MMOs:
Here is the proposed method of the DDI tools starting with the character generator.
You stat up your character with the things you want like Race, Class, etc; then you move to the visualizer. Once you have your character created and your visualized set up you them move into the game, aka lobby, ot the actual table in which you will play with your character, just like the server connects your character in an MMO.
The character builder however does not need this connection as not everyone will be using the Game Table, but that was and is what it is being developed for and as a single package.
All the tools were supposed to be integrated and thus why you have some really silly requirements such as Direct X for the character builder.
How much visuals and animation does the CB really do that requires Direct X?
I have seen stronger tax applications that did not require Direct X, and for database use this very forum seems to do a pretty good job, and doesn't need Direct X or even Windows.
If you look at such a narrow view of the CB and what it is versus what it is a part of and meant to be only a part of then you cannot see the connection to starting a character in an MMO.. When you look at the larger picture then you see that it is the same step for creating a character in an MMO as the next step will take into account what items you have that you will be able to pick from the CG modeler to "suit up" your graphics to comply with your character stats.
How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?
Anyway the CB could me much better if it wasn't built to be interdependent on the other tools and just allowed for saving to a database and let the other tools, if used, pull from that database rather than what will probably be close to OLE data that is passed directly form one to another. Odds are it will use the saved data locally and pull it into the other apps which taxes the client machine more and the sever less.
Either way it is made to share data so that it can be changed during use on the Game Table. Overhead those wanting a chargen and not wanting the rest just don't need. Thus why saving to an external database would solve both issues. The Game table could pull from WotC servers for the subscribers that are paying for the service, and those lapsed subscriptions can still use the CB without it trying to connect to something else and work solely offline.
Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.
How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?
I haven't played a lot of massive multiplayer online game, just EQ, DAoC and WoW.
All three of those have no stat work. You pick race and class, chose how you will look, and press "Start". Once you are in the world, you can see your stats, not before.
__________________
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Gnoguh, human fighter/cleric (kensei->adamantine soldier)
Carric, elf cleric/ranger (radiant servant->saint)
Torn, tiefling wizard/cleric (divine oracle->sages of ages)
Truxas, human feylock/bard (feytouched->feyliege)
Tagron, human rogue (daggermaster->deadly trickster) 21th level Musings of an Epic Virgin
How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?
The biggest and most influential one of them all, for a start.
Quote:
Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.
I couldn't agree more.
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Sorry, needless sarcastic remarks removed, and now for something more constructive:
So far the Character generator is well abovemy expectations. I am still playing around with the customisation options on the character sheet. Seriously awesome. I like that it is usable offline, I am assuming the full version will also be a local install with a monthly patch for new material and errata.
As a rule, companies don't have open beta tests of their software. They have closed, in-house beta testing. MMORPGs are an exception, because they're intended to be used by massive numbers of players at the same time, connected online to shared servers. So they have to open that up to be tested by the masses, in order to test the massive multiplayer functionality.
Stand-alone, single-user applications don't have open beta tests. Or was there a secret open beta for Windows XP, or Microsoft Office, or Adobe Photoshop, or QuickBooks that I wasn't aware of? Did I just miss the invite to the open beta test of Fallout 3, Grand Theft Auto 4, and Crysis?
No, because companies don't need to have a large group of random members of the public "test" their software, unless it's a massively multi-user program hosted online. The builder is downloaded and then run by one person, without an internet connection even required. Why would they need to have an open beta test for that?
That would be, essentially, giving away their entire product for free. No other commercial software publishers do that. You're acting like WotC is falling short of some "proper industry standard" by not having a free giveaway (ie, full open beta test) of their stand-alone application. That's ridiculous.
It isn't an MMO, and it has practically nothing in common with an MMO. It has much MORE in common with Excel and Acrobat than with a MMORPG.
__________________
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Funny how people take one statement and run with it forever taking it out of context.
Yes most companies don't do open beta testing for regular software, but CB is more like an MMO because you need players to test it and tell you what they need or want out of it.
This is where the fault comes in because they are only beta testing a demo version rather than the full thing like MMOs would have people testing the full core thing with add-ons coming later after the core system is working.
Look at all the people raising the same types of questions on the WotC forums and other various forums around the net.
Will it work after 3rd elvel? Has it been properly tested? Why haven't changes been made to fix existing problems prior to the open beat instead of just adding new expansions to it and leaving the bugs in it?
The whole testing bit is flawed, so the product can only be flawed when finished because too many things went untested.
So that is the big part of MMO reference, and let it end there as Phaezen did.
The thing isn't being properly tested, and the errors for the paid for version will show because of it.
How much visuals and animation does the CB really do that requires Direct X?
Requiring the .Net 3.0 framework and Direct X is more of a product of product that: looks good, is built well, and can be developed by multiple teams of developers. You can advantage of these tools to make flexible, modular software, that can be handed off to different development teams and not require a massive learning curve/clean-up process. In bringing in new developers, the skill-set you are looking for is plentiful. The game table/visualizer will differently use DirectX since it will be rendering everything in 3D, you want all the components of your software package be developed in a uniform manner. You want to shuffle your developers around and not have them do mental gymnastics to remember what everything uses and what libraries they can or can not access.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
Anyway the CB could me much better if it wasn't built to be interdependent on the other tools and just allowed for saving to a database and let the other tools, if used, pull from that database rather than what will probably be close to OLE data that is passed directly form one to another.
Right now your character is saved to an XML file. The default location is ddi\Saved Characters\
in your "My Documents" folder.
I'm also curious as to how many MMOs that you have played where you can click a little "House Rule" icon and then change anything you want. How many MMO's actually produce your character sheet for you. How many MMO's then let you print out your character sheet on a page where you can move around the elements on the page.
If this was an MMO character generator, why is it saving it to an XML file on your machine. Why can you house rule anything you want? Why let you print out a character sheet?
I really don't follow the complaint. Do you just object to using a computer to assist a pen and paper game? That seems to be the issue. I'm not sure how one would design a tool to help build a character for D&D that wouldn't resemeble an MMO to you.
I'd just like to say, "We get it, you don't like this, WE GET IT." Now let's just move along.
For what it is worth, looking at the following thread, there does seem to have been a closed beta test of the full product. The public beta demo is nothing more than a demo for people to have a look at the first three levels, and let WOTC know of any errors they pick up.
For what it is worth, looking at the following thread, there does seem to have been a closed beta test of the full product. The public beta demo is nothing more than a demo for people to have a look at the first three levels, and let WOTC know of any errors they pick up.
That was the beta test of the demo for subscriber prior to adding the martial powers data set.
Quote:
Dylan "ExoByte" Mayo
Producer D&DI
The thread was started by someone on the inside, and seems to have lost his staff icon, so maybe was a hidden layoff or something....
So far they have only ever released levels 1-3 to the public, unless you can direct me to a post stating otherwise.
Of course the devs would have access to the full product to write it.....
@filthgrinder:
What does the houserule icon have to do with anything? It is a valid option from within the software. You cannot add your own items or anything else, just like you cannot do so in video games. You are bound by only what exists in the system.
The one thing I'd most like fixed in the short term is some kind of filter for making characters that are "PHB Only" and so forth.
I am fairly sure there is an option for that kind of thing, but I have the generator installed on my home pc, not at work. I will check when I get home and report back.
I am fairly sure there is an option for that kind of thing, but I have the generator installed on my home pc, not at work. I will check when I get home and report back.
Phaezen
Perhaps I'm just missing it or else I haven't got the latest version. I downloaded it a week ago today.
There is only one version for open beta, and the only difference in it and closed was the added Martial Power book and stuff like that. No actual updates to the system, and there is nothing that filters which books to use at this time.
You are offered material from everywhere and every book that exists in the system so that it is RPGA compliant, since everything is allowed in the RPGA.
I think the WotC forums have a thread or two about the RPGA material problems and needing a Minotaur changed because the Dragon overrides the MM entry or some such....
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