General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I am glad at least that the source of each feat/power, etc. is noted to the right of the entry so that you can skip over sources that you don't want to use. But it's rather a pain during character creation to have to do that when the number of such things from outside sources is fairly large. And presumably it will only grow larger.
It also needs a way to turn splat books off. I mean if you don't own MotP then maybe you don't want that set of data to load to be in the way and only want the books you own to load. It will still be "official" even if you choose not to use MotP....
It's been over a week since I've used the program, but I'm almost 100% positive that you can do this. I don't have the program installed on this computer right now or I'd check.
I believe this option is in one of the very last "tabs" of the generator. I remember seeing it and thinking it was cool to have that.
Anyway, it doesn't appear that you've delved too deeply into the software. How long did you actually spend experimenting with it? And did you complete a character? I like how you can drag/drop and customize the layout of the character sheet.
__________________ "Haven't you caught onto how EN World works by now?
Praising 4e = you're right.
Finding anything wrong with it - ANYTHING AT ALL! - even if you overall support it = you're wrong. And closeminded. And dumb. And a bad DM." -ProfessorCirno
I had to scale it down for three players and there was no TPK. I might have scaled away too much.
-OchreJelly on Irontooth
On the Finish Tab there is a button called Restrictions (on the lefthand side, next to the character portrait). The features seem to be disabled for the Beta release, but it includes houserules and such. You can also choose to allow sections from certain books,for example rituals or races.
It's been over a week since I've used the program, but I'm almost 100% positive that you can do this. I don't have the program installed on this computer right now or I'd check.
I believe this option is in one of the very last "tabs" of the generator. I remember seeing it and thinking it was cool to have that.
Anyway, it doesn't appear that you've delved too deeply into the software. How long did you actually spend experimenting with it? And did you complete a character? I like how you can drag/drop and customize the layout of the character sheet.
Yup - you can indeed turn off any books you want from the CB. Go to the Finish tab (last tab) and click the 'Restrictions' button (bottom button on the left). You then get a list of every source currently being used. Uncheck the boxes for stuff you don't want and voila! Also I am really excited to see a space to import houserules! It isn't enabled in the Beta version yet
When does this go gold btw?! I am subscribing this week (on payday) for a full year just on the strength and versatility of this builder. Way to go WotC!
__________________ "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson 18th century English author.
On the Finish Tab there is a button called Restrictions (on the lefthand side, next to the character portrait). The features seem to be disabled for the Beta release, but it includes houserules and such. You can also choose to allow sections from certain books,for example rituals or races.
Phaezen
I see the section that you are talking about. Glad to see that it's in the works.
I also note that Retraining is included in that section and the interface looks quite simple.
Oh goody it is on the last tabs rather than the first tab so you have to go back and forth still.
Then you have to select the _SOURCE section and turn it off even in the PHB tre to remove everything even if you have already done so like Draconomicon 2, and other books that are there but not even out yet.....
If you look at such a narrow view of the CB and what it is versus what it is a part of and meant to be only a part of then you cannot see the connection to starting a character in an MMO.. When you look at the larger picture then you see that it is the same step for creating a character in an MMO as the next step will take into account what items you have that you will be able to pick from the CG modeler to "suit up" your graphics to comply with your character stats.
How many MMos have anyone here played that first go into making the visual look pretty before any stat work is done?
Sometimes people just cannot see the forest for the trees though.
Like so many other of your posts, you twist your own perspectives and statements so completely and so rapidly with each successive post that it becomes effectively impossible to argue anything with you, as your logic manifests in an increasingly incongruent fashion. Not only that, your condescension continues to mount.
Building a character in Character Buildr != Playing an MMO and dynamically advancing through level/gear upgrades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
You cannot add your own items or anything else, just like you cannot do so in video games. You are bound by only what exists in the system.
Copies of Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and a huge host of other games disagree with your sentiment here.
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
Oh goody it is on the last tabs rather than the first tab so you have to go back and forth still.
Then you have to select the _SOURCE section and turn it off even in the PHB tre to remove everything even if you have already done so like Draconomicon 2, and other books that are there but not even out yet.....
Wow - you really are a whiner aren't you?
__________________ "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson 18th century English author.
No, I just can't stand stupid software designs for the looks of it rather than the function.
A computer isn't a toy made by Fisher Price, it is a tool, and all tools should be made for their function first. If CB was made to look pretty, then they did a good job, but for any other purpose it fails as software because it is unintuitive and has a pitiful user interface. It, like Vista, is made for stupid people that don't know how to use computers and need it to remind you of everything and in the process removes your options to "tweak" things to work for you as an individual because all the defaults are set for people that barely know how to turn on a computer this day and age.
I get so sick and tired of software for dummies.
They completely threw out the rules for good software design to make it look fancy and work poorly.
Its job is not to be hung on a wall like a piece of artwork, but is productivity software, and needed to be made for its purpose. Maybe the reason it is designed so poorly is because it relies so heavily on Windows and Microcrap Framework. So the same design stupidity was built into it.
It isn't that hard to set out and write software for the right purpose. Figure out what it needs to do and the proper way and order to do that.
This is why there hasn't been a decent chargen since they became official and taken out of fan abilities to create and share en-mass.
This problem is found most often in places where the software writers don't know the subject material they are writing software for like tax software where the users are accountants, but the coders are not. I find it funny that a closed system done in house the people don't know D&D well enough to know what order to do things in.
Break out the old wingdings and start using flowcharts for software design again. Outline the steps needed first to allow the user to make their selection. That would include first allowing the decision to enable or disable any features found in the software, THEN they start using the software.
It is very stupid to have people have to sort through all the added crap on first use because they hid the options on the last tab.
Hey I got an idea for a beta test. Include TFM so people can RTFM. But in designing something like this if you need a manual because all the hidden option selections then you have designed a poor piece of software and placed the options in the wrong place.
The make use of the menu bar for a few things, why not follow the standard and place other options right there!
Options -> Edit Preferences -> Hide MotP
Repopulating the menu at runtime isn't that hard, and doing so during a patch is even less bothersome as you just overwrite the program anyway with the patch and include the new menu options for the newly added data.
Always there and always waiting, not having to jump around tabs to figure out where someone hid some option to enable or disable something.
But the beta doesn't allow for UI bug reports as that is finished, it is only for other bugs where the devs didn't test for various platforms properly and can't figure out why things aren't working on anything but the machine it was written on. Just like the problems with Compendium and DDI website in general because they are writing for Microsoft proprietary software.
If you like bad software, then so be it. I have a copy of Atari 2600 ET game if you are interested.
Last edited by justanobody; 23rd December 2008 at 04:27 AM..
NIt is very stupid to have people have to sort through all the added crap on first use because they hid the options on the last tab.
Interesting. I find it "stupid" to have to go through the option page every time I create a character, rather than having it on a page I go to once (like the last page or an options page) and choose the sources and leave it. Your method I consider bad design.
Now, that assumes you don't have to adjust it every time you open the program. Since it's not active in the beta we can't tell. If you do than the first page make sense. On the other hand, having to choose sources every time I consider poor design in the first place.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
There is a spot for Filters, it's just not enabled in this version. Under the "Finish" tab, there's a button called "Restrictions". It allows you to filter certain material out.
I really like what I've seen so far with the CB, but I have to agree with justanobody on one point. It would be more intuitive and more useful if the restrictions button was on the first tab, rather than the last. Being just a button would not require you to go through the restrictions every time you open the program.
Interesting. I find it "stupid" to have to go through the option page every time I create a character, rather than having it on a page I go to once (like the last page or an options page) and choose the sources and leave it. Your method I consider bad design.
Now, that assumes you don't have to adjust it every time you open the program. Since it's not active in the beta we can't tell. If you do than the first page make sense. On the other hand, having to choose sources every time I consider poor design in the first place.
The menu can have options selected and leave them as well. That is why programs started having INI or initialization files to tell the program what options to turn on/off at startup.
And your second bit explains exactly why the beta is poor because they are not effecting changes for people to test the changes to make sure they work.
All the more reason in cases of a database test you start with smaller amounts of data and test the heck out of the UI first. Then add the data later when the UI is working. They opted to go the other way and make a fixed UI and not properly test it for use but stuck things wherever for people to have to find.
Yeah it would be dumb to have to select each option each time it starts, and that is one of the first bugs to remove, but again this is a beta test of the demo product and not the full product, and the full product will not get beta testing at all....
This is why demos are made from the full tested product and then you just disable the things to cripple the software to the limits you want the demo to have. Not make the demo and test it and hope the full product doesn't have 1000 more bugs in it that weren't taken into account and properly tested for.
A computer isn't a toy made by Fisher Price, it is a tool, and all tools should be made for their function first. If CB was made to look pretty, then they did a good job, but for any other purpose it fails as software because it is unintuitive and has a pitiful user interface. It, like Vista, is made for stupid people that don't know how to use computers and need it to remind you of everything and in the process removes your options to "tweak" things to work for you as an individual because all the defaults are set for people that barely know how to turn on a computer this day and age.
I get so sick and tired of software for dummies.
They completely threw out the rules for good software design to make it look fancy and work poorly.
Wow. See, I find your definition of poor design very strange. To me, if a fairly complex piece of software can be used by a dummy, then it's probably pretty intuitive. I also fail to see any removal of options. What we've got so far looks very "tweakable" to me. As I mentioned earlier, I can go through and start creating a character - race, abilities, class, powers - then go back and change my race, and the affected stats get updated, as well as things mechanically dependent on them like defenses and powers.
As a DM, having "default" options will save me a ton of time when creating NPCs, and I can still tweak the default characters after they're created.
Your hat of the CB seems to know no limit, as you really seem upset about DDI as a whole, and more about the business decisions around it than the software itself.
May I suggest you're not entirely objective in your critique of the CB application itself?
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
The menu can have options selected and leave them as well. That is why programs started having INI or initialization files to tell the program what options to turn on/off at startup.
Or instead have an "Options" or "Customization" menu elsewhere and not glaring at me on the first or last tab (far better than either WotC's choice, or yours).
I want my new players to be able to start creating a character and make their meaningful choices without this screen they might have no understanding of as their first experience of the program.
__________________ David A. Blizzard
"The only constant I am sure of is this accelerating rate of change" - Downside Up by Peter Gabriel
Yeah it would be dumb to have to select each option each time it starts, and that is one of the first bugs to remove, but again this is a beta test of the demo product and not the full product, and the full product will not get beta testing at all....
Beta test <> public test. You seem to keep making that mistake, acting like theres' no internal testing going on at all for the program. Though to avoid confusion, it probably should have been labeled "Open Beta Demo (feedback welcome)"
__________________ "Sometimes we buy books because we think we're buying the time to read them." - Warren Zevon
The problem is when you make something that only barely requires human interaction, then what point is there to make it for a human to use in the first palce?
You need to know a bit about what you are doing to use any kind of productivity software, and at the least know why you are using it.
This thing tries to walk you through step by step, but in the process neglects to put some of those steps in the right order, and doesn't really indicate what to do as you move from step to step.
It would normally be a case of RTFM, but there isn't a FM to R in the first place.
It is cute that these buttons light up slightly, but I can barely tell when they are on or off. There is nothing that states what you should be doing at one of the steps, and nothing that indicates where you can or cannot click.
Say you want to pick powers and don't want to pick your at-wills first, but want to pick your daily's. Did you know you can click the Daily line at the bottom and switch to picking them first?
IF it worked to aid humans rather than try to do everything for them in the wrong order it would be different.
I have looked at the CB like any other piece of software and critiqued it for what it is. The flow of the software would not have passed to the public for even a closed beta in the state it is in.
I unwilling reinstalled the thing to point are exacts problems with the software for those that seem to think I haven't even used it just because I haven't found all the hidden sections on the poorly designed and colored UI so will just give you a few things when it loads that are bad places to start the software....
I already mentioned pulling the newest update info form a website when there is no feature to even update, so right now that should be something local rather than even load another process or two to pull it wil IE, and leave a portion of IE running and display it. The HTML file could be on the client machine and never have to go out, as its current state may lock up computers when it cannot find a connection to the server, when someone wants to use the program offline. I had this happen a few times and had to use the task manager to end all the processes started by CB.
Mouse over buttons when you start. They are cute, but the glowy crap was over in the early 90's. How about a more professional look rather than the latest electronic toy from TOMY. (Is Tomytronics still around? Maybe HASBRO owns it by now....)
Now you go right into choosing a race!
PHB, MM, FR...all there. God forbid you want something from some book that is hidden in the list.
PHB is at top and FR and MM races are mixed in alphabetically.
Here is where the options need to be or a welcome screen or something that will tell you what steps wyou will be taking like pages 29-30 of the PHB itself.
That way someone not owning any core books, but that may be using completely digital products to play on DDI would know what they are doing.
So where on this page/tab do I disable MM races?
There is a place to create a custom element, but I haven't use the program yet (assuming first time user again remember) to even know what to do, and have no instructions as to what this custom element will even do compared to the predefined elements.
I can minimize all races and not be able to pick any of them unless I open the list back up....
This would be nice if you had to....wait! There is no point in closing the entire list when you MUST choose a race!
The program should have not even began with the splash screen as far as that goes even to backtrack.
There is a start tab that can handle all that for you. Even has the Wax seal saying it is beta. Here the Welcome bit talks to you like an idiot instead of providing usefull information on the software.
I mean someone will not be going to buy this at a store and pick up the wrong thing because they stumbled on it. The should already know waht D&D and 4th edition is if they subscribed to DDI. That is where the update and patch information could be contained when the program loads.
But back to the race tab....
I click on human, then have to click choose Human, and it takes me to a new page. What is the Next Step button there for all this time if it is going to move me along myself? To annoy me and be useless?
If all it ever does is move to the next tab in order, then it is useless since the tabs are all at the top. Wasted resources.
No I am choosing languages. I already went over this. But languages don't need to be here. They are window dressing and not something that other things depend on or have language as a requisite for choosing.
Again I can close the entire list of choices, but then have to open it again or stare at it unable to make a choice since they are all hidden, FR and PHB alike.
Shall I go on, or do you think maybe I was judging CB for what it is? A part of a larger program in a service package and not a stand alone program. I am much harder on standalone programs that parts of a package, so If you want me to continue going over the faults of CB on its own merits, then I will be a lot harsher on it for its failings as a standalone program.
Quote:
"Open Beta Demo (feedback welcome)"
Yes that is exactly what it is as was stated in an Insider by Randy that this was the demo version of the program. THAT being stated may get it les critical reviews because many people are seeing it and saying "That's it? That's all I get?"
You need to test the full thing, and maybe just calling it a Beta Demo rather than attaching open or closed would work better.
@Glyfair:
Your players will still need some understanding of the program, and how many people want to use a computer to slow them down by having to track down options and such so they don't have to sort through mountains of lists for things that they won't even use or want to. Wasn't that a long time gripe about countless splatbooks and the reason behind the "everything is core" philosophy of 4th?
Last edited by justanobody; 23rd December 2008 at 05:52 AM..
uh... where did they ever say that the next releases of the closed builder with more levels wouldn't be a beta or still in testing? I think they said that it would still be in testing for a while.
uh... where did they ever say that the next releases of the closed builder with more levels wouldn't be a beta or still in testing? I think they said that it would still be in testing for a while.
The majority of the team right now is focused on getting everything ready for *all* levels (1-30) of content, which we want ready to go for early next year. We’re still targeting the end of January, although that date is not yet set in stone.
We’re still on track to offer all 30 levels to our subscribers early in the new year. It won’t be available the first few weeks in 2009, but we’re working toward a time slightly after that; the closer we get to the date, the more details we’ll be able to share. We know how much you want the full 30 levels, and we’re working to get them into your hands as soon as possible.
Meanwhile, I know the thing you really want is more levels… and you’ll get them soon, probably in January. For the next month or so, subscribers and the general public will both have access to the same level 1-3 Open Beta, but at some point shortly after the holidays being a subscriber goes back to being special again as we start rolling out more levels for Insiders only.
Originally Posted by mudbunny — Senior Volunteer Community Lead
The character builder is currently available only for levels 1-3, and, according to reported plans, is likely to stay that way for the rest of the time for the beta.
I think you make a good point, which I cannot disagree with.
Right now our main focus is to take the hundreds (thousands?) of bug reports and suggestions and get them done in time for the full version release. The full version release is waiting for a piece of software to keep it updated and secure which is still being tested and polished.
We have enough to keep us busy for a few weeks trust me. We are thinking about levels 4-30, and how to improve that data and experience also. I suspect that early next year when you get the full version there will be some minor data issues still like you describe. The updater technology will let us fix all those things every month though and they shouldn't stop you from making anything. So my goal is to get the full version cleaned up and locked down so we can give it to the players as soon as possible.
One thing I am sure we can all agree on is stopping with the changes so it can be pushed out. With the recent vista bug fixes we implemented it seems like it will be ready and stable and feature complete.
Thanks for all the feedback. My main take away from this thread is, "Awesome, now give us the rest ASAP."
Sorry I haven't been on these boards as much the last few days, we are working like mad on all the good feedback we have so far.
I got permission to clarify Randy's post that you quoted above.
The open beta will be late next week and will have some new content but still levels 1-3.
The full version with levels 1-30 will be in the second half of January.
Hope that helps.
__________________
Mike Donais. WotC R&D.
What makes you think there will be any more beta after this demo version? All I see is that beta will be levels 1-3, and the next thing will be the full version.
Last edited by justanobody; 23rd December 2008 at 06:24 AM..
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