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Ah, I stand better informed. And highly amused. Especially that in your very quotes they talk about covering and fixing issues that will come up at the 4-30 levels. Issues that they can't know about but will fix as needed.
It still makes your whole point about bad testing moot. The product will be a living one, getting fixes and updates as they deem necessary. In a way still being tested. Not cut and dried and 'done'.
Are they going to have further issues. I guarantee it. It is software.
Ah, I stand better informed. And highly amused. Especially that in your very quotes they talk about covering and fixing issues that will come up at the 4-30 levels. Issues that they can't know about but will fix as needed.
It still makes your whole point about bad testing moot. The product will be a living one, getting fixes and updates as they deem necessary. In a way still being tested. Not cut and dried and 'done'.
Are they going to have further issues. I guarantee it. It is software.
They will be testing them, but you already note that they missed other things in their own tests, and claims of fixes to some things already being in the open while only data was added to the open testing, and actual fixes to problems were not.
So their actions speak much more clearly than their words, and their words offer little to no trust as there actions are always contradicting them.
At least the volunteer is more trustworthy as s/he has nothing to gain from lying about the things or spreading misinformation.
Let us look at this "living" product. How often do you see major changes after a new dataset is added? They should have the core of the thing down and working and not need to update the core software because a new rows was added to the database. Once you have the database working and can lookup its info then you don't need major design anymore. That is all the thing really is. A few simple calculations in the right place and a database look up to place the chosen data in the right places.
A form filing piece of software shouldn't need this much work to make work.
Other people have made better with Javascript only a month after the release of 4th. They are just making something easy to create and adding complexity to the software where it isn't needed. It really is just the compendium with some math functions and only needs to access the same database as the compendium to pull data from. So whatever inhouse testing they will continue to do is only because they haven't gotten level 4-30 even done yet for the core, and don't know how to make them work.
@joethelawyer:
It is about the only thing about the game I know. I was always waiting for him to get back up and do more because he always fell into a hole no matter what you did. I think the game actually only have 2 stages. the holes maps, and a random hole to fall in other than the house....
Last edited by justanobody; 23rd December 2008 at 06:42 AM..
They will be testing them, but you already note that they missed other things in their own tests, and claims of fixes to some things already being in the open while only data was added to the open testing, and actual fixes to problems were not.
Please quote specific instances. I think your conflating some of the fixes going into the not yet released version with ones meant for the open beta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
So their actions speak much more clearly than their words, and their words offer little to no trust as there actions are always contradicting them.
Always? Every time their actions contradict their words? Huh, didn't they say they were going to release 4e... and lo it has been.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
At least the volunteer is more trustworthy as s/he has nothing to gain from lying about the things or spreading misinformation.
Are you calling Scott Rouse a lier? How are you not calling him a lier?
Please quote specific instances. I think your conflating some of the fixes going into the not yet released version with ones meant for the open beta.
Are you calling Scott Rouse a liar? How are you not calling him a liar?
Scott isn't working on the CB and probably is given little info on it to relay to people as thee are devs doing a lot of that. Scott has his hands full with 2010 products. I don't think other than starting this thread I have really seen him mention CB that much.
Check the links I provided in that post to note where some of the fixes found in closed beta were supposed to be in the open, but the only thing done to change the open was they added more data from things like Martial power.
The only thing done for a fix was during closed that had to do with Vista 64-bit or something. Other than that no actual fixes were made, just more data added to pacify people with playing with when it went open.
Let us look at this "living" product. How often do you see major changes after a new dataset is added? They should have the core of the thing down and working and not need to update the core software because a new rows was added to the database. Once you have the database working and can lookup its info then you don't need major design anymore. That is all the thing really is. A few simple calculations in the right place and a database look up to place the chosen data in the right places
Wait, didn't you JUST complain that they were not doing ENOUGH testing and changing of things and fixing bugs. You make no sense. One minute you argue out of one side of your mouth, the next the other.
Which is it. Not enough beta testing, or to much? To many changes or not enough bug fixes. It seems to me that nothing they could do would make you happy. Are you just looking for reasons to disparage their efforts? Are you just a sapper waiting to sabotage any effort of WotC's? Please show me it isn't so.
What I am saying is they should have tested the core game full levels version. Then with it working they only need to add new data to it and not need to alter major portions of the UI or such and the data should work just like any previous data.
You don't test each new data line as you add it when it is only say a +2 version of a +1 item, just to make sure you are now adding 2 rather than 1 to an amount.
You are just not paying attention to what is being said and trying to combine everything said into one post, and it doesn't work that way. You are stuck in a rut in thinking.
The core needs to be thoroughly tested and working, then any new data added should not pose major problems. It is simple as that.
The problem with not testing 4-30 for a larger sample size than inhouse, is because there are many things that happen at those levels that do not happen at levels 1-3.
Like paragon paths, multiclassing, forced retraining, starting at 4th you get to increase ability scores, etc.
There is so much that needs to be tested beyond level 3 with the core data, that will give it a good test.
That is absolutely untrue. New functionality was added. Just off the top of my head there was a character summary added.
Ok so rather than fix things they got in bug reports that would help solve problems they added something new, or unlocked something that was locked to offer more problems and bug.
Seems like the perfect thing for beta testing. Create as many bugs as possible and never fix any of them so that a bug in the beginning effects everything after that depends on that bugged section.
How about we start a new thread about beta testing and you pose me and anyone else the questions you want me to answer so people can get back to discussing the CB itself without all the outside interference and we can use the new thread to discuss beta in general and what it should serve to do and how it should function that way and why.
That way people can discuss the CB directly and we will have to forked thread for the shift in topic.
What I am saying is they should have tested the core game full levels version. Then with it working they only need to add new data to it and not need to alter major portions of the UI or such and the data should work just like any previous data.
What makes the data for levels 4-30 NOT just like extra data added to an application? To me it makes sense to have developed that way. It seems they've said as much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
You don't test each new data line as you add it when it is only say a +2 version of a +1 item, just to make sure you are now adding 2 rather than 1 to an amount.
And the same could be said for the DATA that comprises the higher levels. Much and maybe even all of it could be boiled down to data added to a base of a tested piece of software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanobody
You are just not paying attention to what is being said and trying to combine everything said into one post, and it doesn't work that way. You are stuck in a rut in thinking.
I've been paying WAY TO MUCH attention to your posts. I'm getting very tired of your belittling and condescending attitude as well. It is rude, unneeded and unproductive.
Here is something new for those that care. While looking in the folder that CB forces itself into I noticed a program called character tracker.
Here you can load a character sheet without having to load the rest of the program. It is the same thing that runs when you open your character sheet, and that is all you have to do is go to open and load a ".dnd4e" file and your character sheet will open right up quicker than the full program if you don't need to see everything running but just want your character sheet open.
So use the CharTracker.exe without needing to open the builder software.
Why didn't they just give a link for that so people can use it?
Last edited by justanobody; 23rd December 2008 at 03:06 PM..
Reason: dnd3e?
This board really needs a negative xp button. Like level draining or something.
__________________ "Haven't you caught onto how EN World works by now?
Praising 4e = you're right.
Finding anything wrong with it - ANYTHING AT ALL! - even if you overall support it = you're wrong. And closeminded. And dumb. And a bad DM." -ProfessorCirno
I had to scale it down for three players and there was no TPK. I might have scaled away too much.
-OchreJelly on Irontooth
OMG HAX!!! Stop circumvbenting WotC controls you could destroy yuor computer.
What? You get a shortcut to the builder, so why not the viewer since it can run by itself. You don't even need to bother with the builder to print something!
This board really needs a negative xp button. Like level draining or something.
No, that just leads to negativity and hatred. Instead of giving negative XP, give everyone XP, except those you don't want to give any!
Rewarding good behavior is better then trying to punish bad behavior. Think about how it works for trolls - if you answer them and call them on their , they feel their work is done. If you ignore them, they will feel their efforts have been pointless.
The same would apply to negative XP. Rather give positive XP to people you share an opinion with.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
For all the griping about how bad this system is, I found it to be very useful, easy to install and use, and while buggy, fairly functional for my needs. Comparing that to some of the nice form filling character sheets that don't catch bugs, or the complex Excel spreadsheet one that is out there, I prefer this one much more.
I look forward to the full version, but am unsure if this is something that will be available to non-subscribers. I thought it was going to be (the offline version) but if they are limiting it to levels 1-3 it loses some of it's function for me... I don't think I can afford a subscription to DDI right now.
I do think the plans changed for the core offline version to nons to just the 3 level demo version that is out now. It may lose it's BETA stamp, but I think levels 1-3 are all non's get to try the program.
I've been very impressed with the CB program. It's the most impressive bit of software I've seen from Wizards (or subcontractors thereof?) to date.
I don't understand the sense of entitlement that some people have about the development lifecycle that they feel the need to belittle the efforts and intentions of others that are pouring themselves into creating this tool. It's not simple form management software. It is (will be) an engine that allows for exception-based elements to be added going forward; this is definitely no small programming feat.
Again, loving the work, and look forward to its full release.
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