General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
Rewarding good behavior is better then trying to punish bad behavior. Think about how it works for trolls - if you answer them and call them on their , they feel their work is done. If you ignore them, they will feel their efforts have been pointless.
I have to agree. If you read a post with which you diagree, responding with your perspective can add to the thread. If you encounter a person with whom you diagree, it's probably a waste of time to persuade them to change their mind. I've gotten to point where I skip posts that have point-by-point rebuttals.
On topic: I love the character builder and look forward to the day when I never need to create a PC by hand again. The support for new crunch will really set it apart from previous such tools; I expect that we'll be able to use third-party crunch via houserules. Although what if the GSL provided for other publishers to submit their own data files compatible with the Character Builder?
This board really needs a negative xp button. Like level draining or something.
Then we all might as well move every thread here over to 4chan. I would not want to see how fast the community tears itself apart with that option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pseudopsyche
Although what if the GSL provided for other publishers to submit their own data files compatible with the Character Builder?
Neat idea, but given the fiery hells the Rouse and co. has had to be dragged through to try and get it to where folks are hoping it will end up (a journey that is still presently underway), I think making provision for something like this (that is, if it isn't already going on behind the scenes) would only complicate the matter further.
"GSL to include Character Builder add-on support! Delayed to 2017!"
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
I just finally got a chance to play with the CharBuild and I have to say that it's an awesome tool. Beautiful and functional. I'm sure I'll find some things as I play with it, but my first impression is very positive. I hope the Campaign Builder (or whatever the piece used to create the campaigns to be loaded is called) is as nice. Since I almost exclusively home brew, that's a requirement.
After some more discussions here, and until we have the capability to mark a record in more than one source, we have chosen to go with the latest published source, instead of the original source.
This is mainly to be more in synch with the latest version of the Compendium, that offers source as a filter. So as of yesterday's compendium update, the minotaur will appear with a Dragon magazine source, while the Drow will have the Forgotten Realm Player's Guide source. The full version fo the Character Builder will use the same information.
So basically CB will only include the newest version of something because it has to function first to be legal for RPGA use.
So when you update you risk losing a class, race, feat, whatever from an older source and have to use the newest source info.
This sounds real smart.
Maybe they need to revmoe the RPGA legal bit until they have it working rather than remove data like the Minotaur from MM and replace it with a Dragon they may not own, or whatever appears for a Minotaur in Eberron....
Bad design indeed.
Seems this database search tools with a few calculators built in doesn't work well with handling data....
So basically CB will only include the newest version of something because it has to function first to be legal for RPGA use.
So when you update you risk losing a class, race, feat, whatever from an older source and have to use the newest source info.
This sounds real smart.
Maybe they need to revmoe the RPGA legal bit until they have it working rather than remove data like the Minotaur from MM and replace it with a Dragon they may not own, or whatever appears for a Minotaur in Eberron....
Bad design indeed.
Seems this database search tools with a few calculators built in doesn't work well with handling data....
Some of those changes were pretty necessary, considering how ridiculous Minotaur + Oversized Weapons were.
Also, you should consider a career in PR or politics. Your acumen for spin is amazing.
__________________ It doesn't matter how gimped the class may be, people will always play Rangers. Saying "I'm a Ranger" in fantasy gaming is kinda like saying "I'm Batman."
"I have no silver gifts for thee,
No scented words nor frankincense:
Only this love, that burns in me
Like a vain fire in valleys whence
The sun has flown beyond the sea."
-Clark Ashton Smith, 'The Song at Evenfall'
"Oh pick up flutes and fiddles, a new tune is beginning
A melody forsaken, on the chords of our elders' song
Each note is telling a story, a fragment of existence."
-Elvenking, 'Oakenshield'
I stand by the fact that you should not alter the core books that people will be playing with or remove them from another product and outmode them for some new material than not everyone may have, or have access to.
Doesn't matter what the RPGA needs, bacuse a larger portion of players will NOT be in RPGA games, but in home games, and those people need to have access to the core material, not only the RPGA newest material.
This is a fault in programming.
Another reason where properly designed filters should be in place and accounted for as needed as the data grows.
Notice how compared to the Compendium, yet, then compendium includes both sets of rules for Drow and Minotaur?
Well there you go. It isn't that hard to figure out which steps to take to make it work here. This is the same thing all CBs have had a problem with is people not knowing how to make the data work with the software, IE bad software designers and programmers. There is no polygons to have to play with in CB, there is no skin that needs to be applied to a model, this is simple data management.
All you need is a filter for RPGA legal, and update the datasets to include a flag that says which is RPGA legal or not in the data rows. Done!
When you pull form the races table with RPGA only selected you only pull those races with the RPGA flag set.
When you pull from the races table with RPGA only turned off, you pull all races. Maybe you want to only pull PHB races so it gets a flag.
WotC decided to make the thing, so the least they could do is make it right.
1-PHB
2-DMG
3-MM
This code tells what book to filter books only in an index, and you only need the RPGA flag....
RPGA?
1=yes
0/null=no
Sheesh, you call it spin, but it is glaringly obvious how to get it to work quickly with a properly built database and system made to properly read that database, but even the compendium is lacking full filtering and such after how many months?
Seems this database search tools with a few calculators built in doesn't work well with handling data....
I think you are vastly under-estimating the complexity of the software architecture under the covers. I've got plenty of experience analyzing and designing software systems, and this sort of off-hand dismissal of reality is exactly the voice that will destroy quality. Oh boy, the stories I could tell...
I think you are vastly under-estimating the complexity of the software architecture under the covers. I've got plenty of experience analyzing and designing software systems, and this sort of off-hand dismissal of reality is exactly the voice that will destroy quality. Oh boy, the stories I could tell...
Look at this forums tables and its database, and you will see how simple it is I am talking about.
If they cannot get the data in correctly from the database, then there is no hope that the calculations are correct because you have the wrong things plugged into your formula.
The stories I could tell from using the wrong data to do the math with....
Look at this forums tables and its database, and you will see how simple it is I am talking about.
I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.
I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.
If it were something else I would agree, but all the CB does is what we do and everyone had to do in 1E. Compare tables and do some math.
Show the proper data on the tab form the right tables for the previously selected choices.
The math doesn't even play into it until the character sheet is viewed and all totals tallied.
Many programmers make things more complex than they really are.
I say again someone pull out the wingdings and make a flow chart of this program and what little it really does have to do like all other character generators.
There are ones made with Javascript and text databases rather than this that can do the same thing with less. They only lack all the DDI data and new book data, but the functions are the same. Just because you have more data, does not change the function of the program.
This is where building the database and the tables with the proper structure come into play and why it would be just that easy to add a field to the rows of all data elements to state are they RPGA or not as a flag, and then add the filter to select only those when the filter is on, and display those. When the flag for RPGA is turned off, then it goes back and pulls all the data for a given thing: feat, race, class, etc; same as if you wanted only things form the PHB to be displayed.
You don't need a Rube Goldberg program just to add complexity to the code, when something more simple will work.
I think you are looking at the problem with much less experience than you think you are. Software is about more than just normalized relationships between tables. That is a very small corner of the Hundred Acre Wood.
Besides, vBulletin (I think that's the name of the board software) is in development since probably a decade or so?
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
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If it were something else I would agree, but all the CB does is what we do and everyone had to do in 1E. Compare tables and do some math.
Nope. It's "real" software. I can appreciate your wanting to reduce the problem to a scale that you can relate to from your own personal technical experience, but you're not delivering a product. WotC is.
Besides, vBulletin (I think that's the name of the board software) is in development since probably a decade or so?
That's a good point. The forum application as a whole represents a collaboration between separate system layers, each with (ideally) well encapsulated concerns and responsibilities. These layers are cross-cut with security, authentication, and role/group identity permissions. There's likely a php model-view-controller templating framework in there somewhere.
The illusion of simplicity is the reward of a well designed system. There are tens of thousands of lines of code hiding just out of view.
Nope. It's "real" software. I can appreciate your wanting to reduce the problem to a scale that you can relate to from your own personal technical experience, but you're not delivering a product. WotC is.
Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!
The problem is that they, like many others, are not following one software development philosophy.
KISS - Keep it simple stupid!
They are adding levels of complexity to the software that it doesn't need and cannot get it to do the rudimentary functions it does need.
I mean how hard do you really think, or do you struggle with data management?
You know you have something that will change from being RPGA legal or not, so you set a flag for it and look for that flag when you look output results and choices.
It they have to repopulate their database to add an extra field to the rows, then that is there problem for not designing the database structure to begin with.
Sit your butt down away form the computer and write out by hand what you will need and make sure you got room for everything you need now, and the ability to add things later.
They screwed up at square one if they did not take into consideration these filters for either of the database tools CB, or Compendium.
Now you want to discuss the rest of DDI tools, then wait til they come out, but ALL a character generator is is as follows:
-Database lookup tools
-Variable/switch comparison tool
-Series of simple calculators
The other parts of the DDI suite have nothing to do with it. How the data gets in has nothing to do with making a character because it will not be done real time. Otherwise you would have to always be connected to a WotC server to use CB and could never use it offline.
Maybe you should get some knowledge about what you are talking about before you start jumping on people for not knowing what they are talking about.
When you actually say something technical, then maybe you will have some credibility in what you pop off.
All you are doing is spouting out catch phrases from things you seem to have heard about software.
Build a character generator and seem what it does.
I still haven't seen you present any flowchart yet, and I cannot find my dang stencils to draw one out so will likely have to do it digital from start and won't look that good as if by hand.
WotC is not delivering a product either. So far there is no DDI suite of tools. So far it is the same quality of software as you could call the CD that came with the 3rd edition books.
AFTER they have some form of decent software to show that works and works correctly, then I might think they know what they are doing, but otherwise they got in over their heads and planned more than they can produce just like past D&D related software save for that which was done by Evermore Entertainment.
I mean my mailman can deliver a product, do that make him a good software engineer?
Boy I have worked with "real" software for 26 years, so don't need some punk kid telling me what is what!
<snip>
Now you want to discuss the rest of DDI tools, then wait til they come out, but ALL a character generator is is as follows:
-Database lookup tools
-Variable/switch comparison tool
-Series of simple calculators
<snip>
WotC is not delivering a product either. So far there is no DDI suite of tools. So far it is the same quality of software as you could call the CD that came with the 3rd edition books.
AFTER they have some form of decent software to show that works and works correctly, then I might think they know what they are doing, but otherwise they got in over their heads and planned more than they can produce just like past D&D related software save for that which was done by Evermore Entertainment.
<disclaimer> I am not a software engineer, I do know several people who work as software engineers and they seem to spend a lot of time making simple programmes do what they are supposed to. They also spend a lot of time working overtime around deadline and product delivery dates. This software delivery thing is not as easy as people would believe.</disclaimer>
Back to the topic at hand.
Hmm the Character Builder demo seems to work very well, I am extremely satisfied with it. The Compendium is also very nice thank you very much, updated on a monthly basis, including interface updates suggested by customers, new search filters and whatnot. Well worth the price of admission. I am waiting for the two to be intergrated next month and, yes, I am expecting there to be several database and software issues in and around rollout date, judging by the people I know who work in software development this is par for the course.
Of course, if you think you could do better please demonstrate.
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