D & D D&D Insider Character Builder Open Beta live

[silentounce]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Do you need someone telling you that you are banned for a month? Because that is what has just happened.

You've had a weeks ban within the last month for offensive posting, so this time it goes up a notch.

If you want to participate in ENworld in the future, you must revise your standards of discourse.

Thank you. What kind of cookies do you like? I'll have my wife bake you some. It shouldn't cost that much to ship them to the UK.

[Dinkeldog]

Please, everyone. It's unseemly to go high fiving after a ban.

[Rel]

Originally Posted by Dinkeldog

Please, everyone. It's unseemly to go high fiving after a ban.

Correct. And please no sending cookies to moderators for banning somebody as that looks suspiciously like bribery. Leave the cookie sending to us fellow moderators who, I assure you, will see to it that Plane Sailing gets his "just desserts".

[Mercule]

Well, despite nearly convincing me to disagree, so I didn't have to stand next to him, jan did have a good point. I've found that the RPGA table rules that differ from the core tend to universally annoy me and are exactly the sort of rules I don't want to play under.

With the final release of the software, we're supposed to be able to implement house rules. I really hope that this includes the ability to "grandfather" or re-implement some things that run counter to the latest RPGA stuff. For example, while I can see where the minotaur/goliath with an oversized weapon is unbalanced, I find it irreconcilable to remove that ability from the PC version of the race while leaving it for the NPCs. I would like the ability to include it in my campaign.

[Festivus]

Originally Posted by Mercule

With the final release of the software, we're supposed to be able to implement house rules. I really hope that this includes the ability to "grandfather" or re-implement some things that run counter to the latest RPGA stuff. For example, while I can see where the minotaur/goliath with an oversized weapon is unbalanced, I find it irreconcilable to remove that ability from the PC version of the race while leaving it for the NPCs. I would like the ability to include it in my campaign.

I am sure you will be able to do that. While I disagree with you about monsters having to be built with the same system the PCs are, I do agree that the system should be as flexible as possible.

[Mercule]

Originally Posted by Festivus

I am sure you will be able to do that. While I disagree with you about monsters having to be built with the same system the PCs are, I do agree that the system should be as flexible as possible.

I don't care if PCs and NPCs use the same system. It's the end result that matters. If NPC goliaths wield big freakin' weapons because they're somewhat oversized, then PC goliaths should be able to, as well. If it's unbalanced for PCs, just say it's not a PC-able race -- isn't that pretty much what you'd say about a pit fiend? The only difference is scale.

I'll make the concession that it could be the "big" racial ability or that it could even require a feat (or feat tree) to do, but a PC needs the potential.

One of the things I hated about oD&D was the long tradition of having NPCs (usually wizards) who could do some interesting things or make neat toys that the PCs never could. "Because he's an NPC" is an absolutely horrid reason for an ability. Make it require 40 years of study or the bartering away of one's soul or something else prohibitive, just don't make it truly impossible.

With the over-sized weapons, I'm just afraid that there is no good excuse, though. It's inherent to the race, for NPCs.

I'm not saying that the PCs and NPCs need the same builds or stats. But saying that PC goliaths cannot use oversized weapons is as ridiculous as saying PC wizards can't cast fire spells. Sure, an NPC wizard may have a rechargeable fire spell, while the PC doesn't, but they can both do it. Maybe the goliath gets a racial daily stance that lets him wield oversized weapons for the duration of the encounter -- it tires him out, but he can do it when the chips are down.

[vic20]

Originally Posted by justanobody

When you actually say something technical, then maybe you will have some credibility in what you pop off.

Here's some Java code for you:

System.gc();

Back on topic: I imagine that the final product will allow for flexibility at least to the point where you'll be able to customize your weapon to do whatever damage you want. It'll be marked "houseruled" but you should be able to be a Minotaur with a big sword.

[diaglo]

Originally Posted by Mercule

One of the things I hated about oD&D was the long tradition of having NPCs (usually wizards) who could do some interesting things or make neat toys that the PCs never could. "Because he's an NPC" is an absolutely horrid reason for an ability. Make it require 40 years of study or the bartering away of one's soul or something else prohibitive, just don't make it truly impossible.

actually PCs could make items in OD&D. it just required the player to write it up and get the referee to make a ruling. it also required gobs and gobs of gold. a well stocked lab. and most of the time... time and material exotic components. and then there was still a chance it failed. and they had to start over...

which many groups were very much against doing... taking time off from adventuring to wait for the crafter.

[Mercule]

Originally Posted by diaglo

actually PCs could make items in OD&D.

It's been long enough since I played anything pre-3e, that I can't remember the specifics. I just remember there were a smattering of "only NPCs can do that" that ticked me off.

[Pseudopsyche]

Originally Posted by firesnakearies

This is an awesome idea! I really hope they eventually implement something like this.

Technologically speaking, WotC just needs to implement functionality allowing DMs to export their house rules for their players to import. Then third-party publishers can use the same functionality to share their crunch with their consumers. I don't know about the licensing considerations, however.

[DaveyJones]

Originally Posted by Mercule

It's been long enough since I played anything pre-3e, that I can't remember the specifics. I just remember there were a smattering of "only NPCs can do that" that ticked me off.

it wasn't so much only the NPCs could do that as it was a handwave by the referee to not have to go into an NPC/referee dialog and hold up the game. or show all the behind the scenes gathering of components and failures in the process.

the PCs could do it. but it meant the player had to write up the stuff.

after 1999 it has become so the player can do the method/formulary more easily for the game being played with the new rules. the referee can plug the NPCs into the same formulary and it doesn't change much.

[AllisterH]

Originally Posted by DaveyJones

it wasn't so much only the NPCs could do that as it was a handwave by the referee to not have to go into an NPC/referee dialog and hold up the game. or show all the behind the scenes gathering of components and failures in the process.

the PCs could do it. but it meant the player had to write up the stuff.

after 1999 it has become so the player can do the method/formulary more easily for the game being played with the new rules. the referee can plug the NPCs into the same formulary and it doesn't change much.

Er, I think you might be underselling how difficult item creation was in pre-3E.

I'll give two examples, straight from the books.

From 2e's black cover DMG

A 17th level mage wishes to create a +5 sword.

Requires the "Contact Other Plane" spell to find out the steps needed.

1st step: Shape a sword blade from his own hands using ore from a SPECIFIC mountain in a SPECIFIC area.

He gets there but to remove the ore, the owners require the mage to pass a test.

He then has to recover from that test, take the ore to be blessed with PURE SPRING WATER from a specific site. (All told, this mage isn't doing this in a week. we're looking at the better part of a fortnight at least if not a month or two)

It takes about a month then to actually construct the blade itself from the ore.

Then he has to dip the blade in fresh black pudding acid, have the blade be blessed in a church and then a paladin must lay hands on it. (Now finding the church is no problem but the acid and the paladin are adventures in themselves as the acid is not something that remains fresh for long and paladins are REALLY rare pre-3E)

Now all of this takes about another fortnight at least hunting down all the people/places involved.

THEN the mage has to spend days casting "Enchant an Item" on the sword, 5 castings of the "Enchanted Weapon" (one for each plus) and then since by the time you get through the Enchanted Weapon spell, he has to recast the Enchant an Item spell a couple more times.

Finally, he has to cast PERMANENCY (and risk losing a pt of con) and after all of that, the DM rolls to see if the player was successful. Even with all his steps, the chance for this sword is 65% so the DM has to roll under(rolling anything above 95% being a cursed sword)

Needless to say, the player isn't going to be creating many +5 swords at all.

How about a couple more examples?
An 8th level cleric creating a scroll of Neutralize poison. Shouldn't be too hard right since this is a spell the cleric knows already....and the slightly more useful Wand of Fire (which became the Staff of fire in 3e).

PO:S&M
Requires the ink to include the rare nightshade plant harvested during the dark of the moon. Takes the cleric about a week to locate and accomplish this at the right time.

Then she must steep the quill used to write the scroll in the venom of an adder (a couple of days here) and then actually takes ANOTHER week to actually create the scroll.

Even with all this effort, the cleric still has a 5% chance of creating a cursed scroll.


Now, a 14th level mage wants to create a wand of Fire.
Uses Contact other plane to shorten the reseach time (he has a laboratory already set-up) and thus only requires 2 weeks (without the contact other plane spell or any other "commune" type spell, reseach takes 1d6+1 weeks)

Result?

To create a wand of fire, the mage requires
1 Wand forged by a master smith of the Azer race
2 Using brass smelted in the Efreeti City of Brass
3 That must then be tempered by the breath of an ADULT RED DRAGON
4 Ten enscribed while still malleable with an exotic red ruby and finally
5 Polished with a mixture that contains the ash of a 1000 year old tree destroyed by fire.....

Needless to say, we're talking several months to set up here (36 weeks as per the book)....but wait, we're not done yet.

He then must spend several days casting "Enchant an Item" then several more days casting the spells Pyrotechnics, Burning Hands, Fireball and Wand of Fire

Then the DM checks to see if the player was actually successful. Would you believe that the book only gives the player a 77% chance and that's only because of the DM bonus of 10% because the DM thinks he was creatve with the processes and 5% since the character was a specialist.

Oh yeah, player pre3E were really lining up and begging their DM to create magic items....

[DaveyJones]

Originally Posted by AllisterH

Oh yeah, player pre3E were really lining up and begging their DM to create magic items....

don't worry about me underselling. i run it a lot differently.

[silentounce]

All that old school item creation stuff was awesome. It made magic items actually worth something. Nowadays they're just given out like candy. It's just an extra plus one.

Most campaigns a PC can just walk down to the local magic shop and buy one. But when those rules for creation were written a campaign world where magic was rare was the norm.

[Plane Sailing]

Back on topic!

I like the character builder. Generally speaking it is nice and smart, displays the text and options attractively and produces nice character sheets.

I've only got a few quibbles with it so far. The biggest one revolves around the difference between "save" and "save as", so to speak. Each time I make an update to a character, I want to save my progress, so I press "Save" - but I'm given a 'save as' style dialog and asked if I want to overwrite my old file if I select that.

The default behaviour should surely be just to save the current file when you press save (and give a different option for saving a copy, for instance)

I agree with justanobody that the install process should have included a shortcut to the character sheet display application, since that gives a quick and easy way to display the sheet for use or printing. I can't think of any good reasons for hiding what is essentially a useful standalone application. Hopefully they will fix that in the installer for the final version.

Cheers

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by silentounce

Most campaigns a PC can just walk down to the local magic shop and buy one. But when those rules for creation were written a campaign world where magic was rare was the norm.

In theory. In practice there was a glut of +1 swords, armor, rings of protection, etc. It was amazing how many of these things were created when the process was so hard.