General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
May I suggest that what people calls "magic" is simply stuff that they can't explain. To ancient people, lightning is magic and a power wield by the gods because they can't understand its cause. Curses were thought to work because people didn't understand germ theory and how people got sick.
Once you can clearly provide a mechanistic explanation of cause and effect, "magic" becomes tech. That is not to say that tech is not mysterious to the layperson. I don't know very well how my computer works and I doubt very much if anyone on this board completely understands quantum theory, but we wouldn't call them magical. I go to the tech support when my computer breaks down, but if I had completely no understanding of modern technology, I might as well call them witch doctors.
Magic is tech in D&D and many other RPGs is because the books provides the rules for magic. They have to, in order to make the game work. You mix bat guano and a few words and you get a fireball. Completely mechanistic with clear cause and effect. Even if the magic rules include a chance of failure everytime someone casts a spell, the player knows why the spell failed (you rolled poorly).
In a "magical" world, the world is whimsical. An inhabitant don't know or understand why the world works the way it does. He cannot establish mechanistic cause and effect. He may not even believe that you can understand the cause and effect in that world.
In a "tech" world, the world is orderly. A person may not know or understand exactly the rules by which the world works, but he knows that there are rules. If something happens that he can't explain, he knows that it's because of his lack of knowledge of the rules of the world, not because the world doesn't have any rules.
I think what Jack7 is saying could be made by analogy to how the Force was described in the original Star Wars films compared to how it was described The Phantom Menace.
I think he may have a point there, but I won't attempt to apply it to RPGs, specifically D&D.
That's actually quite good. Allow me to extend it a little.
In fantasy fiction and film people prefer magic to be like the Force as it was described in Star Wars. In fantasy RPG's like D&D, people prefer magic to be like the Force as it was described in The Phantom Menace. Because in a fiction and film we are vicarious participants in the action. We can sit back and enjoy the mystery. But when we're gaming, we are direct participants. Our choices decide the outcomes. We want magic quantified, so we can both use it and defend against opponents using it against us.
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There are two separate instances regarding the feel of magic as it pertains to D&D play. The first is from the perspective of the player and the second is from the perspective of a fictitious character within a fantasy world.
To the player at the table, that sense of wonder at discovering magical items and thier function when first encountering them is difficult if not impossible to maintain. Experienced players are familliar with the workings of such items after years of play and so the standard array of items become all too ho-hum and expected. Keeping the player mystified by the workings of magic requires a constant influx of non-standard magic to keep them guessing which can amount to a lot of work.
To a character within a fantasy world magic will be as wonderous as it is rare and unknown. If the vast majority of magical items are available for sale or can be constructed by the typical adventurer then what was once magic simply becomes designer gear. 3E brought about this style of magic with the detailed item creation rules. Suddenly any adventurer with the right feats, and resources could make items that were magical, and functional. Made to order gear became standard (RAW only-subject to individual tweaking) and thus wonderous items became standard gear, not only to the players but to their characters as well.
I remember a section on magical items from the 1E DMG that talked about the rarity of or even unique nature of certain items. It was suggested that perhaps only a few or even one of certain items might exist within the campaign world. Lets take a typical wonderous item such as a pair of boots of speed for example. Suppose these items were crafted long ago by a famous elven wizard. Only three pairs are known to exist and one of those pairs is owned by a well known retired adventurer. While exploring a ruined city, the PC's discover a pair of these boots in the lair of some beastie. How valuable and treasured a find will this be? On the other hand if these boots can be cranked out by a party member with some time, gold and a Keebler elf sweatshop then they will probably get tossed in the pile of other goodies to sell because everyone in the party who wants such an item probably already has it.
The 4E design that was supposed to put an end to the reliance on magical gear could have made magical items actually magical again but it didn't. Magic items are still just designer gear like they were in 3E with a narrower selection of must have slotted items and larger percentage of add-hoc doodads. If you add the ability to squish unwanted gear into magical poop to fertilize other items with then its easy to see where the magic has gone.
That ooh-ahh feeling from simple magic items may be next to impossible to get back for the players but making magic rare and not so easily obtainable can help bring back that feeling for the characters.
I know what people are saying about how difficult it is to make magic mystical in a game but the point is, I feel other games manage it much better; take Ars Magica for example!
Here magic somehow feels more authentic and mystical because there are a set of laws of magic that must be contended with, as if magic is indeed a mystical and ill understood force. These laws are also vaguely patterned after historical/cultural perceptions of magic that seem "right" like the law of arcane connection; you need a hair or object owned by someone to affect them with a spell if you can't see them.
I think D&D magic could be made much more mystical, indeed I have my own system to do so, so that magic itself almost becomes another character in the story.
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I know what people are saying about how difficult it is to make magic mystical in a game but the point is, I feel other games manage it much better; take Ars Magica for example!
Here magic somehow feels more authentic and mystical because there are a set of laws of magic that must be contended with, as if magic is indeed a mystical and ill understood force. These laws are also vaguely patterned after historical/cultural perceptions of magic that seem "right" like the law of arcane connection; you need a hair or object owned by someone to affect them with a spell if you can't see them.
I think D&D magic could be made much more mystical, indeed I have my own system to do so, so that magic itself almost becomes another character in the story.
I would be very interested in hearing more about this system of yours. Magic could use some vitality these days. Especially 4th Edition magic.
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I don't want the Tyranny of Fun to become one of PF RPG's design principles. That's 4e's province, and I'd happily leave it that way.
If there is no wonder, and no mystery it isn't magic, it's science with newts and circles instead of cogs and circuits. If I want to play with science I don't need an RPG, I have a garage and a soldering iron.
If you don't want magic in your game, you shouldn't be playing a fantasy RPG. Period. Play a SF game, play a modern day game, play a historical game, play an alternate historical game where you explore the ramifications of a chinese expedition introducing horses and gunpowder to south america before the spainiards arrive.
Do not however whine that a fantasy game has magic in it, because that is the whole freaking point!
There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.
Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.
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There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.
Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.
The other option is to damage the reliability of magic through the inclusion of a random element a la Wild Magic or Deadlands' playing card draw.
The player knows the game mechanism, but cannot make accurate predictions as to the final result.
Or have no rules for magic items and spells, only mundane activities. This would be the precise opposite of old school D&D which, bizarrely, precisely delineates magic while such activities as climbing trees and swimming in the village pond are left in the realm of eldritch mystery.
Or ban magic users. Pretty much the way Pendragon handles it, all the PCs are knights. Or ban magic users and magic items. But what would be the fun in that?
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
The way D&D handles magic as mystery is to make only the very high end stuff mysterious - artefacts, bizarre 10th level spells that were lost in ages gone. So magic (in the D&D sense) only becomes magic (in the sense of mysterious) when it's really powerful. The low end stuff, like +1 swords and magic missile spells? Just another kind of technology.
__________________ The female tiefling's horns are not 'handlebars'.
There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.
Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.
Quote:
The other option is to damage the reliability of magic through the inclusion of a random element a la Wild Magic or Deadlands' playing card draw.
The player knows the game mechanism, but cannot make accurate predictions as to the final result.
Quote:
The way D&D handles magic as mystery is to make only the very high end stuff mysterious - artefacts, bizarre 10th level spells that were lost in ages gone. So magic (in the D&D sense) only becomes magic (in the sense of mysterious) when it's really powerful. The low end stuff, like +1 swords and magic missile spells? Just another kind of technology.
That's an interesting set of observations Doug and Nagol.
Personally I think it is based on the following technique(s) of displaying magic as a game concept in D&D. With artifacts and relics and so forth you have so many different kinds of magical effects that can be displayed that one has a hard time "guessing or knowing" what effect the item will manifest next.
That is to say high level magic items have a wide option choice of magical effects and displays, which adds to the mystery of the manifestation. It is not a simple one lever-one effect operation.
Simple magical items, +1 swords and so forth, can't project that element of "the unknown or mysterious." Not with that system anyway. It's like you say, low magic is a simple mechanical or technological operation. It only usually does one simple thing, like an extremely simple machine.
I think you can change that by making low level magical items fluctuate in what they do, or by changing the way they "present helves" on occasion. They would still do mild things, by comparison to high level magic, but only one thing at a time, yet also various or changing things.
But I think you made a good observation and I like the idea of the paradox of magical-technology in D&D. I think it can be fixed, or at least changed, but I like the point.
Nice try. The wand of fire from 1e could do burning hands, fireball, pyrotechnics, and wall of fire. Much more fun than any old wand of fireballs. A lot of 1e stuff was way more versatile than later editions.
And the generic flavorless '+1 sword' shed light like a torch and had a chance to be sentient and other powers.
Yeah, straw men meant to ridicule the OP aside, some of the old-school items like the Rod of Lordly Might and the Decanter of Endless Water did seem to be a bit more interesting than some of the newer Magic Item Compendium items that do this spell X times / day as a swift action.
The magic that used to be found in all games has been steadily acquired by a handful of wealthy individuals, and now only makes its way into the games of the privileged elite. The rest of you just get boring cruft like "+1 sword"s.
This is just one reason why Sepulchrave II's game is better than yours. His group bought call options on magic early.
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Not every person who picks up the game wants Mystery and Wonder. And it is easier for a DM who wants it to put it back than it is for a DM who doesn't to remove it.
Then why are they playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons? It is full of mystery and wonder.
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