General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known. If magic means unknown or mysterious and magic is the essential part of fantasy then the term 'fantasy rpg' is an oxymoron. It's impossible. You can have a fantasy novel or a movie, but not a fantasy rpg.
Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules.
It was inherent in earlier versions of the game that what magic items were possible were intentionally hidden from the players (hence the admonition in the 1e DMG that players not pry). Not only that, but it was easy to create new magic items in a system whereby the means that characters in the world make said items need not be known. Thus the plethora of items found in the Encyclopedia Magica which are just plain wacky, as opposed to those found in WotC-D&D, which are all-too-often just plain bleh.
Inarguably, the +X items of OD&D began the idea of items that add to the characters in a numerical way. I would say that this is still an important function of magic items within the game. However, the really fun items are often a heck of a lot more quirky. And quirky doesn't mean the ability to cast one particular spell (freeing up a spell slot) ala the Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
If experiencing magic and mystery are among the goals of players in a D&D game, I note that placing the magic items in the PHB is among the most boneheaded moves possible. The addition of rituals (in 3.5 UA, and later in 4e) is, OTOH, a good idea, because a ritual allows any type of magical effect to occur, opening the door to mystery once more.
IMHO, at least.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
There's a paradox here. A major part of rpgs is the tendency to define, to categorise, to enumerate, to systematize, to represent numerically. In short, to make the unknown known.
This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.
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Maybe the answer to the paradox is - only the GM should know the rules. Or maybe the only truly magical rpg can be one where there aren't any rules. But I think for a lot of rpg players mastering the rules is a big part of the draw.
Another approach is to accept that most magic won't be very 'magical'; it's just a tool. This is the stuff found in the rule books. Then, in additional, add some unique magic, whose rules are only known to the DM/GM, and have to be discovered through use by the players. These items/spell/entities/etc. will add back some of the mystery, the joy of discovery and learning.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
It's also full of dull-and-functional wahoo like Magic Missile and a longsword +1
Which really is supposed to be full of wonder. An adventurer is a rarity in the D&D world not the norm. Hence why you can still have a plague problem like Seven Days to the Grave.
In any case, with all of the genres out there, fantasy logically would be the one for those interested in Wonder and Mystery. Otherwise just play the modern genre.
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Originally Posted by Mallus
Not exactly.
And I would disagree.
Again then why play in the fantasy genre?
Has it really gotten to the point that Dungeons and Dragons is just like any old game?
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Originally Posted by Mallus
This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.
Another approach is to accept that most magic won't be very 'magical'; it's just a tool. This is the stuff found in the rule books. Then, in additional, add some unique magic, whose rules are only known to the DM/GM, and have to be discovered through use by the players. These items/spell/entities/etc. will add back some of the mystery, the joy of discovery and learning.
It would appear that you actually agree with me here.
Personally I like to both take old items and then alter them so that the user can't know exactly what they do ahead of time, why, or how, and to create New Items.
I also like to do the same for monsters, and for various other things.
Right now I am experimenting with a way for characters to express magic in individual and unique ways, according to their nature, so that they can do away with spells and preformulated magic. Of course that means that monsters and NPCs will have the same ability.
It was inherent in earlier versions of the game that what magic items were possible were intentionally hidden from the players (hence the admonition in the 1e DMG that players not pry).
You know, I don't know a single person who heeded that particular admonition .
I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself. And not tell anyone. Or write them down. And possibly not think about them too hard, in case one of your players scored highly on the Rhine Sensitivity Test...
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
You know, I don't know a single person who heeded that particular admonition .
Really? Do you mean you don't know anyone in person? Or are you attempting to say that no one you know on EN World heeded that particular admonition?
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I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself. And not tell anyone. Or write them down. And possibly not think about them too hard, in case one of your players scored highly on the Rhine Sensitivity Test...
Your experience with ESP is very different than mine.
I had (and have) no difficulty with making up, writing down, and thinking about magic items. Perhaps my players all rolled poorly to see if they had psionics (1e style ).
RCFG has allowed me to use the Encyclopedia Magica again, and that book contains enough ideas that I've never run into a player able (or willing) to memorize them all.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself.
This strategy goes back as far, at least, as Eldritch Wizardry and it's approach to artifacts. The later 1e DMG used the basically the same concept - and that was that the powers of the artifacts would be chosen from a menu of options by individual DMs so that players that owned the rule books wouldn't know them.
To whom? Magic missiles and longswords +1 haven't been full of wonder to D&D players since the 1970's.
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An adventurer is a rarity in the D&D world not the norm.
But an adventurer is not a rarity among D&D players. In fact, every player has at least one !
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In any case, with all of the genres out there, fantasy logically would be the one for those interested in Wonder and Mystery. Otherwise just play the modern genre.
You seem to be under the impression that all fantasy aficionados are interested in 'Wonder and Mystery' (however you're defining them). I'm betting that isn't true.
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Again then why play in the fantasy genre?
I'm betting there are any number of reasons (hint: we're really talking about taste, a place where logic --rightly-- fears to tread). Perhaps the player wants to play a butt-kicking elf armed with no better than late medieval weapons?
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Has it really gotten to the point that Dungeons and Dragons is just like any old game?
It's like any old game where you pretend to be an elf, kill things, and take their stuff.
(I actually believe there are a great many things you can do with RPG's, but I'm suspicious of any attempt to mythologize the game)
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It would appear that you actually agree with me here.
Good. Agreement is nice.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
Really? Do you mean you don't know anyone in person?
In person (sorry, should have been clearer about that).
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Perhaps my players all rolled poorly to see if they had psionics (1e style ).
Actually, the only confirmed psionic ability my players had was the one that gave the target a whopping headache (Psychic Crush, I believe... )
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RCFG has allowed me to use the Encyclopedia Magica again, and that book contains enough ideas that I've never run into a player able (or willing) to memorize them all.
How the pet project coming along these days?
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
This is exactly right. I'd go further and say this penchant for categorization and explanation has become one of the hallmarks of modern fantasy fiction, thanks to the influence of RPG's like D&D.
I think this is a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Fantasy fiction has sometimes experimented with quasi-scientific systems for magic that attempts to quantify it in a way that would seem like an RPG. Some of these efforts predate RPGs, and in fact (obviously) contributed to the way the magic systems work. The two big examples being Vancian Magic, and the component system of deCamp's Compleat Enchanter stories. Both of these predate DnD. Perhaps not-so-coincidentally, both sets of stories feature magic-users as protagonists of the story, and so I think it's nice to have a "system" of sorts so that the reader can have a sense of the protagonists limitations.
The concept of magic being inherently unknowable and unquantifiable IMO is not a concept that I've seen outside of this thread and similar speculations by people talking about RPGs.
That's an interesting set of observations Doug and Nagol.
Personally I think it is based on the following technique(s) of displaying magic as a game concept in D&D. With artifacts and relics and so forth you have so many different kinds of magical effects that can be displayed that one has a hard time "guessing or knowing" what effect the item will manifest next.
That is to say high level magic items have a wide option choice of magical effects and displays, which adds to the mystery of the manifestation. It is not a simple one lever-one effect operation.
Simple magical items, +1 swords and so forth, can't project that element of "the unknown or mysterious." Not with that system anyway. It's like you say, low magic is a simple mechanical or technological operation. It only usually does one simple thing, like an extremely simple machine.
I think you can change that by making low level magical items fluctuate in what they do, or by changing the way they "present helves" on occasion. They would still do mild things, by comparison to high level magic, but only one thing at a time, yet also various or changing things.
But I think you made a good observation and I like the idea of the paradox of magical-technology in D&D. I think it can be fixed, or at least changed, but I like the point.
The difficult part is balancing useful reliability with unpredictability.
The character and/or the player not being capable of predicting what the magic item will do next severely reduces the player's incentive to use the tool. Reliability and predictability is highly sought after in tools that you are relying upon for success (and in the character's case for survival).
The Wand of Wonder is the archtypal unpredictable magic item. Many players will pass on its acquisition. Many others will only use it when either (a) success is all but certain or (b) defeat is almost certain otherwise. Very few individuals in my experience pull it out as a tool of choice when they think the outcome is tight, but winnable. The reason for that is simple: the item is too unpredictable to be relied upon. Wild Magic has gone through a lot of revisions/publications of possible results because the unpredicatablility one group appreciates is unacceptable to another.
Adding an item that shifts between known states adds uncertainty for the player at the cost of complexity of tracking for the DM. The player's state only lasts until he works out the pattern for shifting. At that point, it adds some complexity to the player to work out when/how to shift the item to achieve the desired result. Alternatively, the player doesn't take the item into consideration and only takes advantage of it when it coincidentally offers the effects desired at the time of need.
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
The difficult part is balancing useful reliability with unpredictability...
Adding an item that shifts between known states adds uncertainty for the player at the cost of complexity of tracking for the DM. The player's state only lasts until he works out the pattern for shifting. At that point, it adds some complexity to the player to work out when/how to shift the item to achieve the desired result. Alternatively, the player doesn't take the item into consideration and only takes advantage of it when it coincidentally offers the effects desired at the time of need.
I think you got a good point there.
However I didn't mean to imply that it (a magic item - especially low level magic items) changes every time you use it. But maybe I should have been clearer.
What I meant, but didn't elaborate on, was this:
1. The capabilities of items may change over time. Old powers or abilities can be lost, new ones might be gained. This is especially true when items have been exposed to other magical items or to the influence of high level magic's such as spells. It alters what the item can do or in what way.
2. Certain abilities can lie dormant or hidden until exposed to a certain trigger.
3. Certain active abilities can be forced into hibernation or dormancy by exposure to certain devices, magics, or events.
4. The capabilities or powers of a item can wax or wane in certain situations.
So, assuming you already know what an object can do then you can rely upon it to a degree, but you cannot rely upon it to be the same or static forever. And you cannot always rely upon it to be consistent in the degree of intensity by which the magic in it manifests itself.
I think the idea of static magic being inflexibly matched to corresponding physical objects is simply a sort of technological analogy, where most technological objects are "fixed in their nature" and so do not change or alter over time.
But it is hard for me to imagine magic as being physically and technologically "fixed and static" in the same way as say, a television set. You can buy a new and better television (maybe even add things to it and upgrade it) but it will in effect always be a television set. It will never be a motorcycle.
However with magic I don't imagine the same situation at all. I see magic as fluid and transmutable, flowing, always in motion, active and changing. It would not "adhere to" or "affix itself" to objects in the same way that technological functions do. For instance it is easy for me with magic to imagine a spear that assist the user in combat, but which also assist the user to read magical scripts and which may even on occasion allow the user to fly. It is therefore a weapon, a communications device, and a means of transportation. Such a spear is a magical multi-tool of drastically different and varied capabilities. Magic can do that, technology has a much harder time being that fluid and flexible.
In other words magic would be open to change and that change might be very wide ranging indeed.
Therefore I think the way games sometimes view magic as static and fixed is simply an easy technological analogy, not by any means a necessity of function.
You know, I don't know a single person who heeded that particular admonition .
Whereas I know many; and was one myself before I began DMing.
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I found the only way to conceal magic item properties is to make them up yourself.
Or swipe them from sources other than the list provided for the particular game/edition you're playing. Got a bunch of players who've only played 3e? Then the 1e DMG is Your Friend. Your players got the 1e DMG memorized? Bet they haven't seen the new Equipment Guide (or whatever it's called) just put out for 4e. And so on.
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Originally Posted by Nagol
The Wand of Wonder is the archtypal unpredictable magic item. Many players will pass on its acquisition.
Not me! Other people passing them up just leaves more for me to play with, so gimme gimme gimme! (and then stand back. Way back.)
We need to get back to that in modern fantasy games.
Which version of older D&D are you looking at? Y'know what I remember most from my BD&D and AD&D days? +1 swords.
It wasn't until lateish 3.5, with Weapons of Legacy that I remember D&D ever really trying to bring "magic" to their magic items. So, if you mean modern as in "post 2007" I'd agree with you, otherwise, I'd say your evaluation of "magicalness" of magic items over the years is not consistent with my experience at all.
Plus, you assume a priori that there's an objective, quantifiable positive to having magic items done the way you want them, which I'd disagree with. I think the paradigm in Eberron, with it's almost assembly line minor magic items, is an intriguing change; a cool new idea that hits like a gust of fresh air.
For what it's worth, the Apparatus of Kwalish made it's way into Adventurer's Vault. We need to remember that 4E is still very new, and there's a good chance a lot of the old favorites will find their way into the game eventually. Of course, they may lose a little of that cool factor for the sake of ease of use/implementaion and balance. That said, I was pleasantly surprised with how the Apparatus turned out. (Vorpal Sword? Not so much...)
Later!
Gruns
Umm, say what?
4E is FOURTH edition
A game with 30 years of history.
How can there be less than a vast amount of fluff available?
Plus, you assume a priori that there's an objective, quantifiable positive to having magic items done the way you want them, which I'd disagree with. I think the paradigm in Eberron, with it's almost assembly line minor magic items, is an intriguing change; a cool new idea that hits like a gust of fresh air.
:shrug:
I agree with you about Eberron being a breath of fresh air. It's a nice setting with lots of new ideas and old ones presented in interesting new ways. However, I would disagree with magical items being made on an assembly line. A barrel full of umbrellas that inexplicably keep the wind from blowing rain in is not a barrel full of magical items. It's magic-tech, which is equipment. Magical items are magical, unknown quantities, especially for the Players. Magic-tech is simply non-real world technology. Star Wars is magic-tech.
__________________ Apparently Reagan never played RPGs ...but he liked to watch.
Spoiler:
Participants in the Pentagon simulations were sometimes of very high rank, including members of Congress and White House insiders as well as senior military officers. The identity of many of the participants remains secret even today. It is a tradition in US simulations (and those run by many other nations) that participants are guaranteed anonymity. The main reason for this is that occasionally they may take on a role or express an opinion that is at odds with their professional or public stance (for example portraying a fundamentalist terrorist or advocating hawkish military action), and thus could harm their reputation or career if their in-game persona became widely known.
(cut)
...former US president Ronald Reagan was a keen visitor to simulations conducted in the 1980s, but as an observer only. An official explained: "No president should ever disclose his hand, not even in a war game". Para,6
Which version of older D&D are you looking at? Y'know what I remember most from my BD&D and AD&D days? +1 swords.
Sad.
But that is an artifact of your experience, rather than an artifact of the game, as is demonstrated wonderfully in the Encyclopedia Magica, which lists every magic item in the game (up to 2e) as well as where it came from.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
But that is an artifact of your experience, rather than an artifact of the game, as is demonstrated wonderfully in the Encyclopedia Magica, which lists every magic item in the game (up to 2e) as well as where it came from.
Never heard of it. I stopped playing D&D before 2e came out, and I certainly never played during the 2e era.
That said, my "experience" included being pretty darn familiar with the BD&D and AD&D books at one point. For every Apparatus of Kwalish, there were forty bazillion +1 swords.
Never heard of it. I stopped playing D&D before 2e came out, and I certainly never played during the 2e era.
That said, my "experience" included being pretty darn familiar with the BD&D and AD&D books at one point. For every Apparatus of Kwalish, there were forty bazillion +1 swords.
As I said, the books contains all of TSR's magic items up to the time of publication. I would really recommend them, if you can find them, for ideas if for nothing else.
That said, AFAICT, there are exactly one listing each for "+1 sword" and "Apparatus of Kwalish" in the books, so I'm not sure what to make of your "experience" listed above.
I would agree that +1 swords are far more common than any other unusual item, but that doesn't mean that the full sum of unusual items is not greater than that of +1 swords.
RC
__________________ [A]ny good dungeon will have undiscovered treasures in areas that have been explored by the players, simply because it is impossible to expect that they will find every one of them.
RCFG - My free mostly-OGC OGL game! RCFG is intended to be a fusion between OS & NS playstyles, giving the advantages of SRD-based gaming coupled with quick character and adventure generation and an Old School feel.
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