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It is interesting that I stumbled on this thread. I think my sig says it well enough for me.
I remember getting the red box D&D as a kid and rapldly moving to AD&D 1E. It felt great. 1E in my mind was far superior to Basic D&D. (This thought would change a bit with the later Basic line expansions. ) When 2E came out I was all for it at first except that most of my 1E fun was initially absent. No demons or devils to vanquish. (Hey, when your fav char is a paladin that hurts more than u think!) High level rules were non-existant or poorly conceived. By the time TSR collapsed my group was hardly playing D&D at all. We drifted away to play Vampire or Ars Magica. It was pretty sad actually. Both Vamp & Ars were great games but the problem with them was that they didn't really inspire great heroism like D&D used to. 3E saved my gaming group! The rules were interesting and different. It was not just a rehash of the old. My group played the heck out of the monsters that were included in the back cover of the PHB on its release because the monster manual was a month away! It was great fun and everyone got the chance to try different classes.
I have been so disappointed with 4E. I feel that it was conjured up by corporate hacks to market to the masses. I feel that some of the old kindred rivals from my vampire games have come around looking for payback. I just feel uninspired. How could Mike Mearls think up a great game like Iron Heroes and then drudge up 4E. Was he behind the concept of the 4E wizard? The one letdown of Iron Heroes was the spellcaster class which Mike even admitted was an afterthought that was rushed into the game at the last minute.
If I am rambling, I apologize. I just feel that D&D is in the hands of "the man" and that it is meant to be dumbed down and sanatized for mass consumption like some cheap beer. I dunno. maybe I am just not relevant on the gaming perspective anymore. That could be the case as well....
Location: “Over the Hills and Far Away” - (Live in Florida - "Home" is Michigan)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catsclaw227
Yea, I don't get this analogy either. I still play in a 3.5 game, and it's the same way we played two years ago. Nothing has changed for me.
In the spirit of compromise, and the fact we seemed to just be beating a dead horse, I partially agreed with that last analogy. I read it as: WoTC changed the RPG landscape with the release of 4E. Not necessarily a bad thing, and I don't ascribe any evil intent to them for it, but I can understand how it may have disillusioned some.
But also, I was starting to feel what Carnivorous_Bean pointed out, that I think we've started to drift a bit afield of Hussars OP.
So, I'm surrendering the field of battle to the rest of you gentleman (cough cough). Peace out, I'm going to bed.
__________________ Mark "El Mahdi" Armstrong - Semper Operor Verus
". . . after all, that is why we're here. Kill the last bad guy and then there's cake." - Major General Jack O'Neal
Gang, come on, now. When the poster--or any poster, really--says "4E has ruined my game!" or "WOTC...or those bastards! They've ruined D&D with this new edition! D&D is screwed now!" etc, etc, in the same way that they have made the analogy of the *House* or the *neighborhood*--by pointing out that they can still use their rules, and their particular *home game* isn't effected, well, really now.
You're being needlessly specific--and avoiding the more obvious and reasonable interpretation of what the writer intends.
You all know--or should certainly know--that such a writer means the overall game for themselves, their *collective* game, in the general sense.
If you really insist of being hyper-specific, and need the writer's unstated implications spelled out to you...come on. I know you guys are smarter and sharper than that.
Yes, 4E could be seen to ruin many people's D&D, from all of the many specific systemic critiques, to the more generalised:
(1) The continuous history of the game progressing through various similar *editions*--has now taken a radical departure. This vast transformation of not merely some rules clean-up, and modification, but rather sweeping changes to the whole foundational *system* makes many people feel that it is unconnected with the previous editions of the game, and it feels so hugely different, that it no longer feels like D&D to them.
(2) Discontinuation of future products for the edition they are currently playing; It's a general principle that when a particular game ceases to have main-line, *official* game support, the particular game essentially becomes marginalised, and withers in the general consciousness, and extending accessibility to other gamers. This reality can, for many--make it very difficult if not impossible, to run any future campaigns with anyone other than their specific current group.
(3) With the aforementioned dynamics, one's current library of vast 3E products then become in a sense *obselete* and dated, essentially limiting their use to such *retro* games. Only people interested in playing in such a *discontinued* and unsupported game, will now allow full use of such material. I'm perplexed at how to explain this precisely, but it becomes a sort of "closed loop" creatively for future campaign miliues.
I hope this clarifies and helps a bit. Personally, I really like 3x, and I am still running 3.5 campaigns. I am enthusiastic about 4E, and am researching it for future adoption at a later date, as I deem appropriate.
Your experience matches mine pretty much exactly. Good first post, by the way!
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Soul
It is interesting that I stumbled on this thread. I think my sig says it well enough for me.
I remember getting the red box D&D as a kid and rapldly moving to AD&D 1E. It felt great. 1E in my mind was far superior to Basic D&D. (This thought would change a bit with the later Basic line expansions. ) When 2E came out I was all for it at first except that most of my 1E fun was initially absent. No demons or devils to vanquish. (Hey, when your fav char is a paladin that hurts more than u think!) High level rules were non-existant or poorly conceived. By the time TSR collapsed my group was hardly playing D&D at all. We drifted away to play Vampire or Ars Magica. It was pretty sad actually. Both Vamp & Ars were great games but the problem with them was that they didn't really inspire great heroism like D&D used to. 3E saved my gaming group! The rules were interesting and different. It was not just a rehash of the old. My group played the heck out of the monsters that were included in the back cover of the PHB on its release because the monster manual was a month away! It was great fun and everyone got the chance to try different classes.
I have been so disappointed with 4E. I feel that it was conjured up by corporate hacks to market to the masses. I feel that some of the old kindred rivals from my vampire games have come around looking for payback. I just feel uninspired. How could Mike Mearls think up a great game like Iron Heroes and then drudge up 4E. Was he behind the concept of the 4E wizard? The one letdown of Iron Heroes was the spellcaster class which Mike even admitted was an afterthought that was rushed into the game at the last minute.
If I am rambling, I apologize. I just feel that D&D is in the hands of "the man" and that it is meant to be dumbed down and sanatized for mass consumption like some cheap beer. I dunno. maybe I am just not relevant on the gaming perspective anymore. That could be the case as well....
You're right.. the obsolescence of 3.X is what I fear... I played RuneQuest throughout the 90s when it was more or less not a supported system, and it was difficult to get players, to say the least.
My hope for 3.X is that either
1) Pathfinder will be good enough to carry the torch
or
2) the continued existence of the online SRD will make the fact that 3.X is no longer supported by WoTC less significant.
I certainly have enough 3.X stuff to play for years...definitely until 5E comes out!
No, it's like you already own a house, and somebody's selling other houses you don't care for. It doesn't affect you, the owner of a perfectly serviceable house, but when you talk to people who like those houses and people who are selling them, it annoys you that they boost them, or say bad things about your house. That's the difference between play and community discussion.
To be fair, there is at least one legitimate concern: if someone builds a new shiny house, and none of your friends want to come over and play at your house anymore; they want to party at the new house. Now, I don't think it's fair to blame the house builder for this, and if they're your friends then the house you party at shouldn't really matter.
If you normally party with people you would otherwise not spend any time with (ie, not friends), then you're pretty much stuck. Your best bet is to find some more people who also don't like the new shiny house, and party with them. Since you weren't partying with friends anyway, it shouldn't matter too much.
__________________ Iain Fyffe
Original member of the Rouseketeers!
I have played 4E. And just like all other editions of D&D, it is awesome!
no one quotes me in sigs - Crothian
For some reason, this doesn't fill me with rage. I must be interwebbing wrong. - Cadfan
Oh Goodie! ANOTHER edition wars thread! I just can't get enough of them these days. It is such a pleasant surprise when you can open a thread on seemingly ANY topic and find it has drifted down this road. I particularly enjoy the originality of the arguments as well.
__________________ I don't know half of you, half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve!
I think it was when game design articles started beginning with "According to our marketing surveys..." and began including bafflegab like "enhancing the core play experience".
Gary never felt like he was expecting to be taken seriously. He was the crazy old uncle ranting on about Gandalf and gunpowder and what not, and he was amusing, and then you ignored him and had orcs with machineguns and Ye Olde Shoppe Of Magicke ANYWAY. (And beardless female dwarves, the horror!)
I've actually come to like 4e and appreciate a lot of what it does, but it was a long fight through marketroid spew to get there. (Being told how much all the older editions sucked didn't help, either.)
__________________ MrLizard.com Lots of useful (crunchy) stuff for your RPG needs! (Mostly D&D 4e). Updates regularly. You can has feed! LizardGames, now in easy-to-read Feed form! Pontification.com Politics, Religion, and other impolite subjects. Likely to have something to offend anyone. Do you have mad 133t Joomla and CSS skills? Do you want to do unpaid work on a site hardly anyone knows exists? If so, email me! (Hey, I'm honest, at least...)
1) Pathfinder will be good enough to carry the torch
or
2) the continued existence of the online SRD will make the fact that 3.X is no longer supported by WoTC less significant.
Now, don't get me wrong - I think the online SRD(s) and Pathfinder are both great things, but. . .
I just find it odd whenever I read these kinds of things. I mean, what happens with everyone's books? They don't work, all of a sudden?
Seriously, that whole 'supported' thing. . . I do find it odd that anyone at all requires it. The game (and tons of supplementary material) exists already, you've got what you need, you can still play it. Hm.
Quote:
I certainly have enough 3.X stuff to play for years...definitely until 5E comes out!
For a moment I confused you with LostSoul, and expected a different "punch line". Might want to duke it out with LostSoul and the moderators if your names are to similar...
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
For a moment I confused you with LostSoul, and expected a different "punch line". Might want to duke it out with LostSoul and the moderators if your names are to similar...
Yeah that was weird. Before I checked the post count I thought our old buddy LostSoul had been hit with orbital mind control lasers.
It's not that _I_ need any more 3E books. I don't.
It's what happens when I get a new player for a game I am running, and they are either new to gaming, or they come from a Vampire or Gurps background or whatever, and they don't have the 3.X books as a result.
The first time that happens, I will probably have to restrict my 3.X game to core rules/SRD only, because it won't be fair to the new player to let the others use a zillion splatbooks that he doesn't have access to.
When 4E is dropped for 5E, 4E players will be in an even more difficult position, because there won't be an online SRD to fall back on as a rules reference.
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus_Snow
Now, don't get me wrong - I think the online SRD(s) and Pathfinder are both great things, but. . .
I just find it odd whenever I read these kinds of things. I mean, what happens with everyone's books? They don't work, all of a sudden?
Seriously, that whole 'supported' thing. . . I do find it odd that anyone at all requires it. The game (and tons of supplementary material) exists already, you've got what you need, you can still play it. Hm.
The first time that happens, I will probably have to restrict my 3.X game to core rules/SRD only, because it won't be fair to the new player to let the others use a zillion splatbooks that he doesn't have access to.
If I trust him or her enough to have them at my table, I trust them enough to loan a gaming book to them. It isn't like they need constant access to things outside the core rules every day between sessions, or something.
I find SHARK's argument about continuing support weak. The editions changed up because the revenue stream was winding down - the market was saturated with content, such that it was getting difficult to sell more content. Thus, the world has a surplus of support for the original system, sufficient for a lifetime of play, I should think.
I find SHARK's argument about continuing support weak. The editions changed up because the revenue stream was winding down - the market was saturated with content, such that it was getting difficult to sell more content. Thus, the world has a surplus of support for the original system, sufficient for a lifetime of play, I should think.
More than a lifetime. I think the greatest source of animosity towards the latest edition of any game is not so much the product support but rather the difficulty (real or imagined) of finding people to play the older editions.
Such players can be found but it increases the difficulty of the seach check.
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) When 2E came out I was all for it at first except that most of my 1E fun was initially absent. No demons or devils to vanquish. 
(Hey, when your fav char is a paladin that hurts more than u think!) High level rules were non-existant or poorly conceived. By the time TSR collapsed my group was hardly playing D&D at all. We drifted away to play Vampire or Ars Magica. It was pretty sad actually. Both Vamp & Ars were great games but the problem with them was that they didn't really inspire great heroism like D&D used to.
. Peace out, I'm going to bed.
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