General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
All forms of magic are considered spiritual or divine in my setting. The True Speech is a faint echo of divine influence over the world, Alchemists pursue a spiritual quest as they study the nature of matter, Astrologers devote themselves to learning the divine will expressed in stars and planets, and Theurgists speak directly with spirits. Since all these paths result in personal power, there is an element of society that considers them prideful or impious. But on the other hand, practitioners argue that this is just how the world works.
All of those sound really interesting. I also like the idea that people with extraordinary capabilities (assuming others knew about their capabilities) are looked upon in a in a variety of ways. Some could be envious, others wishing to emulate them, some would be suspicious, some seek to use or manipulate them, others admiring, some even fearful or seeking to do them outright harm.
I just don't see guys like Wizards, Thieves, professional Fighting men, Adventuring types, or even Clerics and Paladins being either universally admired, or universally accepted - in any world. They might not be reflexively hated but they would at least be suspect and considered dangerous by many people. All would certainly have their detractors.
That's a much better model I think than, "hey, let's all hang out at the local Wizard tavern where the half-orc prostitutes dance with the bards and the monks and the mayor gets hammered every midnight."
I don't actually know where I'm going with this yet, but I had a brainstorm of an idea on the way to an appointment. That brainstorm led me to slapping out a few pages on "the nature of magic." I put it behind the spoiler cause it's kinda long and I didn't want to force people to scroll through it.
The Nature of Magic
What IS magic, you ask? That's a tough question. A VERY tough question and one you'll never really find a complete answer for no matter how much or how long you devote yourself to its study. I can give you a summary answer, but even that's going to be a bit long winded. But, I promise that if you stick with me and keep your trap shut I'll get to the end and you'll understand. Well, understand may be a bit strong of a word. You'll think you understand, but you won't. I promise.
Let's see. Where should I begin? Ah. Yes.
Magic owes its existence to both the fundamental structure of the cosmos and the blind stupidity of the folk that live within it. See, reality is like a cake with a really, really large number of layers. Maybe even an infinite number of layers. We don't really know the answer to that question.
Anyhow, each layer of that cake, with the exception of the one we live on, represents the distilled essence of some part of the world that we live in. There's a layer somewhere that is the essence of war, the essence of death, the essence of taxes, forests, agriculture, baking, booze, sex and even my dear Aunt Martha who lives down the street.
I know, I know, it's hard to imagine but you just have to accept it as an incontrovertible fact of nature. Somewhere out there in the cosmos there's an entire layer of reality devoted to apple pie, calico cats, bingo and hectoring my Uncle Rupert about mowing the lawn.
The layer we live on (technically referred to as the prime layer) is more poetically referred to as The Grand Conjunction. Why? Well, in the ancient times before The Mistake, a conjunction was a word used to describe both an alignment of the planets within a small patch of sky and the process by which a word could be generated by chopping off the end bits of two other words and spackling them together with an apostrophe. As it turns out, both metaphors are apt.
WE are the Grand Conjunction. The little patch of cosmological sky where every star in existence resides when viewed by an outside observer. The unpronounceable shibboleth formed when every word spoken between the beginning and end of time is glued together with an uncountable number of apostrophes. We are both the center of creation and completely outside its boundary. The alpha and the omega, everything and nothing, etc. etc. and so on.
I can tell from the look on your faces that you still don't understand. That's fine, as I'm only halfway through. I've done this particular monologue more times than there are days in your life so far and I can say that every time I've given it, the faces on my students have looked just like yours do now. So, let's get back to it.
Long ago, longer than I've been alive and longer than anyone I've ever met has been alive, there was a time when Magic didn't exist. I know. It's difficult to understand but it's true. No wizards. No wasteland. No warlocks. No covens. No fetches. No demons. No zombies. No nothing. Just the usual humdrum savagery of every day life for as far back as the universe goes.
Then came The Mistake. We don't really know why it happened or even how it happened, though we're pretty sure that it was our fault and that it was people like you and me that caused it. Some like to describe The Mistake as if we tore a big hole in the walls between the layers of reality. Others like to talk about it as if we got lost and found ourselves deeper into the wilds of reality than is safe. Me, I try to not think about those sorts of things too much. I find that it makes it more difficult for me to practice the forms of magic I'm innately good at.
That being said, I do have a metaphor I prefer to use when pressed on the matter. There's an ancient philosopher whose name is lost to time who said something along the lines of "When you stare into the Abyss, the Abyss stares into you." I've modified that a bit to something like, "When you show an interest in the Abyss, the Abyss shows an interest in you."
That's what we did. That's how we made The Mistake. Thanks to our endless curiosity and dissatisfaction with a normal life devoid of being torn to pieces by horrific monsters, we poked our collective noses into a dark corner of the Cosmos that we should have left well enough alone. We became truly aware of the nature of the cosmos and thereby generated a wholly new layer devoted entirely to representing that awareness. That layer then fed back into ours, as we are a reflection of reality, causing that awareness to ripple outwards and reinforcing the strength of its own representation. Voila!! Instant magic!!
See. I warned you that you weren't really going to understand. Luckily, you don't NEED to understand to begin your studies with me. That being said, there's something about the nature of magic that I'll need to get through your thick skulls before I'll even think about teaching you how to do something as simple as lighting a candle with your mind or changing the color of an orange. Magic isn’t safe. Magic isn't predictable. Magic is dangerous. You're tampering with the raw forces of creation, the fundamental structure of reality and if you aren't the perfect balance of confidence and caution you'll get torn to pieces or transformed into a cloud of butterflies.
Before I finish and open the floor to questions, here's a cute little description of what magic is really like that I thought up for use when normal types ask me to describe it. You're just a step above them so I think it's appropriate.
Magic is like a demented, booze addled fairy step-godmother. She means well. She wants to do right by you. Then she goes out on an all night bender and comes home tired, still a little drunk, filthy and missing a couple of hours. Then you come toddling in, prattling on and on about wanting to know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and if there's still time what the meaning of life is. In her blind rage she simply can't help it when she turns you into a newt. With magic, the real trick is to get her to turn someone ELSE into the newt.
Are there any other questions?
Good. I didn't think there would be.
Welcome to school. Class is adjourned until tomorrow morning at dawn. Please meet me in the middle of the henge and bring your dowsing rods, your chicken bones and your first year textbook.
__________________ Wandering Star - All hail the Master Orb . . .
It made me laugh and had some fascinating metaphors.
Yeah. The creative process sure is strange, isn't it?
What's funny is that the genesis for the whole thing (whatever it is) was thinking about the different ways that magic is represented in literary works.
Somehow I stumbled into, "your mother" as a metaphor for magic which immediately transformed into "your deranged fairy step-godmother" as a metaphor for magic.
I've got more stuff rolling around now and I'm kind of intrigued by the idea.
__________________ Wandering Star - All hail the Master Orb . . .
I've been planning since this was announced and writing for several days, so I guess I should announce myself.
Here's the very rough draft of my introductory paragraph:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarot Arcana
In Tarot Arcana, players take on the role of powerful mages, either mortal or immortal, as they accumulate power and pursue their personal agendas. Magic is a fickle source of power; in order to better understand the flow of magic, mages have come up with a way of representing it: tarot cards. The tides of magic shift constantly; mages can influence their internal tides, the Tarot Arcana, but the magical sea which pervades all of reality, the Tarot Mare, is governed by no one.
I've wanted to make a system of magic using tarot cards for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomCitizenX
Just wondering for other entries, how heroic/powerful are you expecting PCs to be out of the gate? I know for my game the PCs are already going to have a leg up against the average person in the setting due to "fate" or what have you.
As I plan it right now, starting PCs will be on par with the average person (depending on training), not counting magic. Magic totally outstrips mundane alternatives in those areas in which it can be used, and I am assuming all PCs are mages (at least to some degree).
Working with magic elevates the user above the common man. By the time a mage reaches immortality, even if he has never studied sword fighting, he would be the equal of a master of the sword; if the mage has mastered the sword, he could go through hordes of well-trained guards like a hot knife through butter. That said, a few lucky hits could spell the end of even the greatest mage, so they tend to be careful.
One thing I am doing that seems different from several people is that my magic system will be very restrictive; there are only a few spells (probably 22, many of which are closely held secrets or lost knowledge), though there will be lots of variation depending on which tarot cards are in your spell spread.
Last edited by Abisashi; 14th January 2009 at 05:26 AM..
Reason: editaholic!
Allow me to ruin your lucky number of contestants by submitting my own... submission... thingy...
My comrade Joseph Wilburforce and I, Matthew Woodward, will hopefully manage to get through the process of actually creating a system so we might present to you Saga, a game set in 10th-century Iceland. "But," you undoubtedly exclaim, "10th-century Iceland was primarily inhabited by farmers. What's so fun about farming?"
To which I would reply, "You obviously haven't played the Harvest Moon games, but that's irrelevant, because this game is not about farmers. This is a game of the fantastic, in which Iceland is inhabited by all the giants and elves and dwarves who retreated from continental Europe with the spread of Christianity. This is a game where the old gods still walk the Earth. This is a game about raiding and pillaging, about swords and runic sorcery, about slaying trolls and dragons, about the risen dead and werewolf outlaws and wooden golems powered by human hearts, and possibly about alliterative poetry. This is the world of the sagas!"
Then you would probably say, in turn, "Hey that sounds pretty cool." And you would be right. But you might continue, "Yet how is this any different from any other fantasy role-playing game?"
And then I would angrily reply, "It just is," and if you tried to protest I would turn into a giant wolf and eat you.
Joseph tells me this declaration or announcement or what have you requires more mention of Loki, and he is correct, so I shall rectify my error in excluding him immediately.
Joseph tells me this declaration or announcement or what have you requires more mention of Loki, and he is correct, so I shall rectify my error in excluding him immediately.
I love his villainous mustache, don't you?
Hmm... wasn't there a tale where Loki kidnaps Sif and ties her to the railroad tracks?
Norse myth has always been a specialty of mine, so I'm really looking forward to this one. In the 1990's I ran a campaign for 4 years that drew heavily on Hrolf Kraki's Saga by Poul Anderson for flavor.
I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Rouse
"You called Master?"
Amateur Writer trying to break into the RPG buisness.
Works in progress:
Level 1-30 D&D 4E campaign
D&D 4E Campaign setting
Other minor works
I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.
Glad to see that something is coming along for you. I'm sure that the kinks will work themselves out well in time. Still working on a few myself *looks at combat vs conflict resolution and wonders if he should get a hammer*
Well, design on The Awakening carries on. Currently, I'm working on my damage system, but there have been a series of problems encountered during my "work week":
1) Skills: My original assessment of skill space was way off. I think I can have two skill write-ups per page... so I had to really knock down the number of skills available to characters. Even then, I now see I'll have 10 pages of skills! A related problem is with character creation; originally, characters would choose two primary skills (+30% bonus), three major skills (+20%), and five minor skills (+10%) - a total of ten skills... or half the skills in my current system! Since four of those skills are psychic skills (only 1 of which will be useful to a character, depending on which power they receive), that's ten skills out of a possible 17 choices!
So, I had to narrow a character's skill selection down to a more reasonable 5 (1 primary, 2 major, 3 minor).
2) The Multi-Action System: I have a multiple action per round system, reminiscent of the d6 system... which is working fine, I think. But I keep thinking of corner cases that I need to add to my rules system. As a result, my "basic rules" is sort of bleeding into the combat rules.
3) Wounds: My damage system has been a problem since the start, but I'm beginning to get a feel for it now. Basically, characters have a number of Health Points (name to be changed later, maybe) - if they reach zero, you're dying or unconscious (depending on the attack that hit you). However, they replenish at the start of every combat.
If you suffer a wound (a set amount of damage dictated by your character's Body and Spirit attributes), you get a negative game effect depending on where you're hit (wound locations!), and your health maximum decreases by 3. If you should ever suffer enough wounds to reduce your health maximum to 0, you're dead.
In keeping with the post-apoc tone of the game, even if your wounds heal, you still have to suffer a long-term effect for a while... you may have a limp, or foggy vision. And if you got hit really hard, you'll suffer a permanent long-term effect.
It doesn't go as far as Warhammer, though - no limb loss.
Problem right now is figuring out how to include Body Armour - should it just be flat Damage Reduction, or should it increase an area's Wound Threshold?
4) Combat: It's hitting me now that in a modern game, there are a lot of options. How do you implement automatic fire? Burst Fire? Shotgun blasts? Grenades? Suppressing Fire? And, more importantly, how do you do it without taking up any space?
5) Magic: I have a psychic powers system, and it's beginning to take shape. But other factors are cutting into my psychic page count, which could be a problem.
6) Adrenaline: Characters in my game get Adrenaline Points, which are used for a variety of purposes. They can power abilities, heal your character, offer re-rolls, and a bunch of other nifty things. The more I work on the game, the more I'm using adrenaline points... which makes me wonder how many points I should give PCs each day (I've already determined they should be a daily pool to draw from). I'm working on 10 adrenaline points right now, but I have a feeling that may be too much, especially because if I have space I'll be including a mechanic that essentially gives extra adrenaline points if a character RPs his character well.
So, those are my issues right now. Two weeks in, is anyone else beginning to encounter unforeseen troubles?
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
I've finaly come up with concepts for a system. (Math is hard)
I'm trying to find a way to make magic fit in with the idea. If I can't I might be forced to scrap my idea and start over.
Well, if you have some system problems, there's nothing wrong with borrowing. I looked at 3.5E (a system I like and generally understan) to figure out if my math looked right. There's nothing wrong with using a d20+modifier system, or an Xd6 score success system (like Shadowrun).
If you need some system ideas, I have a few I can post here. They wouldn't be complete, but they'd be a good place to start.
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
A little research on other game systems reveals that my system resembles several I have never played; my resolution system, at its core, looks like shadowrun's. In my system you need a 1 or 2 on a d6 for success, because I was originally going to use a variety of dice to represent skill, d4-d20, but I dropped that because I thought it would slow down play too much. I've done lots of stuff to try to speed up the actual mechanical playing.
My multi-action system acts a lot like d6 Star Wars, though I think mine is implemented in a cleaner fashion (I think it will play faster), and I like how I tied it into my wound system.
My mechanics chapter (which includes skills and combat, but not magic) is about 8.5 pages now, and I think it will end up about 10 pages. Skills will probably be about half that. I specify that my skill list isn't meant to be all-inclusive, but I included stuff that I figured would come up a lot (stealth, combat skills, etc.)
One thing I am trying to do is build a system where I can have attacking be a skill like every other without the character feeling like they have to have it; I accomplish this mainly with the power of magic, and because I intend for this to be played with a small number of players (more players tends to make combat encounters more attractive, in my experience).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wik
Two weeks in, is anyone else beginning to encounter unforeseen troubles?
Right now I think my rules are pretty non-sensical, because I haven't really chosen one set of terminology and used it consistently throughout.
Another thing I need to nail down is whether I want combat to be tactical (with minis and a grid) or descriptive; I'm leaning toward the second, but the first has some advantages in terms of clarity.
I currently have four things that can add to a skill roll, assuming no additional outside modifiers; Focus, attributes, skill groups, and skills; I'm thinking of merging attributes and skill groups to clean it up, but I should probably decide that soon.
Last edited by Abisashi; 17th January 2009 at 08:59 AM..
Reason: editaholic!
One thing I am trying to do is build a system where I can have attacking be a skill like every other without the character feeling like they have to have it; I accomplish this mainly with the power of magic, and because I intend for this to be played with a small number of players (more players tends to make combat encounters more attractive, in my experience).
Y'know, I never really thought of that, but it's true. The more PCs, the more "fun" combats can get. I guess it's because RP encounters are often dominated by one player in larger groups.
I wanted a similar approach in my post-apoc game, but I went with a different route. I made sure that combats were lethal, and that any fight can result in a PC dying or getting wounded - the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Shadowrun approach. PCs don't leap into a fight without searching for any advantage they can get, first. At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.
Quote:
Right now I think my rules are pretty non-sensical, because I haven't really chosen one set of terminology and used it consistently throughout.
Guilty of that, as well. I'm keeping an alternate file open to function as a glossary to combat this, but a lot of my terms need to be edited later on, when I have a firmer idea of exactly what they do ("Adrenaline" being the most likely to get a name change)
If you're using a good word processor, I'd recommend doing what I'm doing, and putting an "XXX" (by itself, in caps, not connected to anything else) by anything you think you'll want to change later. Then you use "find" later on to pick up on all of these, and fill in the relevant details.
Quote:
Another thing I need to nail down is whether I want combat to be tactical (with minis and a grid) or descriptive; I'm leaning toward the second, but the first has some advantages in terms of clarity.
Yeah, this is something I looked at, too. I decided to go for the first, if only because my players like using a battle grid. But I wanted to keep the rules simple enough that it can be played without a grid (like d6 SW).
__________________ Current Campaign:The Shattered Isles Homebrew - Hammer (Minotaur Fighter 8), Kirra (Drow Rogue 8), Shedin (Dragonborn Paladin 8), Zahar (Half-Eladrin/Half Drow Bard 8), and Seahorse (Halfling Rogue 8). Currently the group is in the Feywild, trying to discover who is poisoning the drow.
With that in mind, I know that I want my game to follow a few key rules:
...
2) The Setting's Magic and the Game Rules must intertwine:
I hope you don't mind if I drag stuff from your design blog here. I am curious whether other people's magic systems are similar to/integrated into their general mechanics, or if they are separate and different?
My magic system is going to look totally different from the rest of my mechanics, to help it stand apart (and because using the magic mechanics for every action would be too slow); using magic is not like using a sword at all, and I want the player to feel that.
I wanted a similar approach in my post-apoc game, but I went with a different route. I made sure that combats were lethal, and that any fight can result in a PC dying or getting wounded - the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Shadowrun approach. PCs don't leap into a fight without searching for any advantage they can get, first. At least, that's what I'm hoping will happen.
I also wanted a pretty lethal system. Although a mage can survive hit that would kill a normal man, damage reduces his dice pools and ability to take multiple actions; it might be hard for the enemy to land the first hit, but once they do things will go downhill quickly.
DMing the PbPs: (FR 3.5) A Hard Time in HarrowdaleOOC , IC , IC 2 , RG
and (3.x/d20) The FirstOOC , IC DMing on OpenRPG: D&D 3.5 - T13K Fall of the 14th Kingdom, T13K For More Than Glory, SR3 - Welcome to Seattle, Chummers Playing: (PbP) Alaric the Alchemist, Cade the rogue, Grackle "Grubeater" Granitetop, Kerrix Malzan, Lars Crichton, Liiros Tivaniel, Vardok Stonekennel, Warren the halfling, (OpenRPG) Kaleverithis, Oobla Fat Cheeks
*EN World's Eyros Creative Exercise and Rules/Crunch of Eyros
*My Rhunaria D&D setting, prestige classes, feats, etc. *Favorite links
(Rhunaria and Links temporarily offline now)
*My Aurelia D&D thread on EN World, setting and rules; new and
revised 3e races, classes, variants, PrCs, feats, spells, etc.
In my RPG, both combat and magic key off of the skill system. If you swing a sword, you use the sword skill; if you speak an incantation you use the True Speech skill. In melee you can defend yourself with a weapon, so the attack roll becomes an opposed roll. I haven't figured out how to incorporate analogous defenses for missile fire and magical attacks.
My damage system is very simple: you can take three wounds, and on the fourth wound you're dead. Melee combat can have several opposed combat rounds before a wound actually occurs. This gives the characters a window to break off combat before physical injury when they realize they're outmatched.
So right now, my mind is gnawing at a simple problem: shields. I'm thinking that using a shield grants you a roll to avoid the wound when it finally occurs. That's certainly a useful benefit, but I foresee two problems: the more skilled combatant in a melee probably ends up not using their shield at all, and the mechanism extends an already long combat.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
