4e / GSL "Stuck" playing 4e (i.e. unwilling converts)

[Mercule]

This is dangerous ground and I hope it doesn't devolve into an edition war. Please keep the griping to a minimum. 3e and 4e are different systems, aimed at different play styles. As games, neither is inherently "better" than the other, just more "appropriate" to your style. Please approach the discussion with that assumption.

I just ended my 3.5 campaign and we're trying to decide what to do next (I posted a nWoD thread last week). 4e is up for discussion, but there are concerns.

Right after 4e came out, we ran a single session of KotS, using only the rules found there-in. As DM, I thought it looked like D&D. A couple of players really liked it. The paladin had the worst dice I've seen for years, so she's not sure what to think.

The wizard, though, had the most concern. He's the most experienced player at the table (I've got more experience, but I tend to GM) and is somewhat geared for fiddling with numbers, but without the collector's desire for shelves of books. He's also a big fan of arcanists/wizards. He was extremely frustrated with the way the 4e wizard played and felt. It felt extremely de-powered to him, and not having any rules for rituals (KotS rules, only) really killed the utility aspect of wizards.

He likes Vancian magic (at least, modded with the UA spell-points) and I can't fault his preference. I've got something of the opposite opinion, though, so I can't really see it from his perspective.

Okay, enough background. On to the point:

I'd especially like to hear from anyone who has been "forcibly" converted to 4e. By that, I mean you were skeptical, but your group converted and you went along.

Does the move from Vancian magic (or other subsystem changes, like fighter powers) "grow" on you? Do you still have the same issues you had when you started out? Do you have different issues, especially any that surprised you? How long did it take for your opinion to change/cement? Did anyone else in your group have a change of heart (in either direction)?

Again, I'm not looking for a "x edition is better" comment so much as I'm looking for why it ended up working or not working for you and/or your group. My group has certain play goals, and I'm trying to get information that is useful to them. (For the record, I'm currently thinking that most of the players would benefit from the ease of play I perceive in 4e, but I'm concerned that one player would be frustrated by certain aspects.)

[Fallen Seraph]

This doesn't directly answer your question, as I willingly went over to 4e and all. But, I was just wondering, how dead-set is your friend on being specifically a "Wizard". If it is more playing a arcane magic user could you perchance approach him with some of the other arcane classes (or perhaps other magic classed but reflavoured to be arcane) to see if these are more approachable for him?

[justanobody]

"Does the move form Vancian grow on you?"

Not really when you feel that all the classes now use it in a way and the wizard must still choose between the power/spells he has from a bigger selection.

It is really getting boring that combat plays out the same way with little way to spice it up, and the status effects tracking is very annoying. we actually need someone to keep track of them so we don't drop out of game mode to have to think about them.

You should talk with your wizard player and se what he feels is missing the most, and try something other than KotS because it is not a good introductory adventure as it doesn't even follow the rules as they were not complete yet IIRC.

So at least tell him there are other things if you really want him to have respect for 4th, adn that KotS was a preview module and the game changed.

Other than that I can sympathize with the wizard feeling a bit off. Not that it is underpowered but the lack of freedom and utility it offered in the past outside of combat spells. I just don't like rituals either. They aren't something just for the wizard, so the wiard does lose a lot other than damage dealing in the way of flavor.

[Dragonblade]

Well, as a 4e fan, player, and DM, I will say that he is right about the wizard. It is de-powered, but in my opinion, the wizard was overpowered before. I know thats small consolation.

So here are a couple of house rules you could implement that might bring your wizard player on board. Rules as written states the 4e wizard gets to pick two extra daily and two extra utility powers every time they get a new utility or daily when they level. And technically, the wizard character has to pick one of the two to memorize each day.

However, just say he doesn't have to choose in advance, he can choose on the fly as the situation demands. But once he picks one of the two powers for that level he is locked out of the other one until he takes an extended rest. This gives him much more flexibility without really giving him a big boost in power. He still only gets to use one 5th level daily in a day, he just doesn't have to pre-choose the one he memorizes. This also makes the Expanded Spellbook feat really good, but I think that's fine.

The other thing you can do that we implemented in my game, is you can allow him to sacrifice a higher level slot for a lower level one. For example, he wants to expend his 7th level encounter to re-use his first level encounter power? Sure, go ahead. Or he can expend a higher level daily for a lower level daily, even if he already used the lower level one.

This house rule does give a marginal boost in that the player can technically re-use powers optimized for a given encounter situation, but I think this is mitigated by having to trade out a higher level power for a lower level one.

So anyway, these rules do give an overall bit of a power boost to the wizard player, but I think thats ok. In my group we had a player who loved 3.5 wizards and was really reluctant to play a 4e wizard. We implemented these rules and he totally changed his mind about the 4e wizard. During play, he happily manages his huge stack of power cards like a little kid who just got legos for Christmas.

[neuronphaser]

Those house rules sound pretty good, actually.

The player in my group that always goes Wizard was put off by 4e as well when we didn't use Rituals a lot right away. I'd say that Rituals are THE KEY for 4E Wizards and making them versatile. They are there for a reason; use them.

That said, we playtested using Kobold Hall. Looking at the stats, Kobolds are good at Reflex saves. The player chose all Int vs. Reflex spells, so...really, can you judge something based on that? We're looking forward to some more 4E adventures to see how it sits after a few more games, but that player is definitely still on the fence. Most of the other players are WAY more gung-ho about it.

Also note that the Wizard player is a serious min-maxer, too. He LIKED the fact that 3E was totally broken if you looked in the right books. I LOATHE that, so there's that divisiveness to consider as well.

To sum up: RITUALS are kewl. Use 'em.

[Thanee]

With the ability to choose between multiple Daily/Utility Powers from his spellbook, the wizard still has a bit of that vancian magic, but it's really very small compared to 3rd edition.

Rituals certainly do add a bit more to the versatility of the wizard class, though technically, everyone can learn those.

Bye
Thanee

[ExploderWizard]

We are playing 4E now to give it a try and see how things go. Nobody is "forced" to play anything. I am playing the wizard right now and it does feel different. Rituals are touted as "teh awesome" of utility magic but I just don't see it. They are expensive and cannot be cast quickly enough for some of them to be useful. Need to teleport back to base because the building is about to collapse on you? Well, I hope you have at least 10 minutes to spare Its the same with the knock spell. The party is being chased and needs to get that gate open pronto! ......" just hold em off for 100 rounds or so and I got this sucker"

If you have players who like simple fighters or simple anything then it will be quite an adjustment. Every class has about the same number of powers to manage.

Some of your players may love the changes and others might not. The best advice I have is to play with the full rules rather than speculate. Try a few sessions and let everyone play around with a few different classes. After everyone has had a chance to play and sample different things, discuss it as a group and decide if you want to continue.

[Dragonblade]

Originally Posted by ExploderWizard

Rituals are touted as "teh awesome" of utility magic but I just don't see it. They are expensive and cannot be cast quickly enough for some of them to be useful. Need to teleport back to base because the building is about to collapse on you? Well, I hope you have at least 10 minutes to spare Its the same with the knock spell. The party is being chased and needs to get that gate open pronto! ......" just hold em off for 100 rounds or so and I got this sucker".

I solved that problem too:

Ritual Casting: Standard action

• Can only perform minor actions – While using the Ritual Casting action, the only other actions a character can perform are Minor actions.
  
• Combat Advantage – Until the beginning of your next turn, you grant combat advantage.
  
• Provoke Opportunity Attacks – Ritual casting provokes opportunity attacks from adjacent enemies.
  
• Casting time – The default time required to perform a ritual is outlined in the description of the ritual. This time can be reduced by performing skill checks.
  
• Skill check – Make a Moderate difficulty skill check using the key skill specified in the ritual description. If you succeed, the Standard action you spent casting the ritual counts toward the time required to perform the ritual as if you had spent 1 minute performing the ritual. Every 5 points by which you exceed the DC counts as another minute. Once you begin performing a ritual you must continue to use the Ritual Casting action for multiple round until you fulfill the time requirement, at which time the ritual takes effect. Otherwise, the rules for interrupting a ritual apply normally.
  
• Final effect – A completed ritual takes effect at the end of the turn you fulfilled all the time and other requirements. Follow the rules under the ritual description as normal. If a skill check is required to determine the effect, make that skill check separately from any skill checks made to reduce the time requirement.
  
• Aid Another – Up to 4 others can assist you in performing the ritual per the Aid Another action. They do not need to know the ritual to assist you.

[avin]

OP, you touched a central point of people avoiding 4E, Wizards.

A friend of mine use to say "4E? What 4E?"

Wizards now seem very underpowered, so I'm inclined to agree to Dragonblade it use to be an overpowered class.

Try to talk to your friend and explain that is a new game, like he's playing GURPS or something like that... maybe he want to try a Warlock...

If he wants to stay Wizard facilitate at maximum the use of Rituals for him.

[fba827]

Standard disclaimer: all said here is based on my own experience with my own group -- your experiences will of course vary.

I've noticed that those who approach the game with a favorite class in mind are going to feel like it is different because of trick A, B, or C that it (any class) that it used to be able to do in previous editions is no longer there.
(rangers no longer with animal companions, wizards with different spellcasting, druids can not longer heal as a basic ability, fighters don't have powers keyed off ranged attacks, etc)

While those less "rigid" on system preference are the ones that are flexible in trying out different classes -- for them, the changes are easy since the power structure is the same across all classes they try in 4e.

The switch to the wizard spellcasting system does take a little getting used to, but something you may want to go out of your way to emphasize is the spellbook feature of the wizard -- they have more daily and utility spells and have to pick which ones at the start of the day. That may help the player in question feel more at ease with the familiar idea of "he has X slots of daily spells and therefore must pick from his selection"
So make it a point at the start of each day to phrase it as "what spells from your spellbook do you want to memorize for your 2 daily and 1 utility slots" etc.

Another option to consider (if it's the "types" of spells for the wizard) is to take the druid or invoker preview (if you have access to them) and basically strip away all flavor text and power source and replace it all with "arcane" making them powers for the wizard. Of course, this pretty much means you can't use the druid or invoker class for other players since they'll see their powers mimics by your wizard.

As a general comment, at the moment, there is not much variety or support for wizards, so it can feel a little frustrating when your used to a class that used to have a lot of variety options but currently is still "fresh" in this new edition (as opposed to fighters and such that already have martial power released so they have more than a handful of other options for each of their levels to choose form)

[Mercule]

Originally Posted by Fallen Seraph

This doesn't directly answer your question, as I willingly went over to 4e and all. But, I was just wondering, how dead-set is your friend on being specifically a "Wizard".

I think he's as likely to play a rogue or fighter as a wizard. It's just that the wizard will be the elephant in the corner in that case. Someday, he'll want to play a wizard, and he's the sort where that potential would probably color his enjoyment of the game. I can't really blame him -- this is likely to be more of a permanent move to a new edition, unless the system generally sinks for everyone, rather than just another option among many games.

Thanks, everyone, for the replies. I've been reading them and am looking forward to more.

[dm4hire]

One thought I've had for possible home rules is to throw out the rules concerning spellbooks and make them more like previous spellbooks. In addition to this every spell a wizard gets can be swapped out each day to the maximum they can do. So a wizard can swap out at wills, encounters, and dailies. Have the character start off normally but as he/she finds spells for their spellbook they can start swapping out. Might even rule that wizards can cast anything arcane as well to expand their list, but again they have to find the spell. To keep them from just copying from other players, unless they're playing a wizard also, I'd rule that other classes that have spellbooks use a different inscribe method which makes them uncopiable and warlocks and such that are innate casters don't have spellbooks to copy from. That leaves finding or buying the spells as before. As for rituals some of the casting times seem too long in my opinion to the point they are in effective unless done during rest or down time. Any ritual that might have a combat use I'd cut down to at least one round, maybe two rounds tops for casting time. Oh, and make combat casting of rituals a wizard only ability.

Hope that helps.

[Shadeydm]

My group also changed editions to 4E. I find that despite having components which I dislike good company and a sense of humor goes a long way towards an enjoyable evening regardless of edition.

I would agreee with the notion that the wizard in the new edition has fewer options, but I have seen one performs it's new role quite well (I think perhaps this is important to keep in mind that the system expectation for a wizard has changed significantly). IME the new paladin is pretty good, the new warlock seems more limited than it's previous incarnation. By far the most fun I have had has been playing a Swordmage.

Regarding growing on me I do not believe daily martial powers will ever grow on me. This does not stop me from having fun though. I think in a way everyone at the table recognizes the limitations of the new edition. Even the DM made a good 4E joke when the party was weaponless last week and ran into a couple orcs. The rogue tried to kick one of the orcs in the shin. When he hit the orc it went down due to being a minion. The best part was when the DM described it as the orc collapsing to ground clutching its knee while its lifeblood slowly drained away. Funny stuff, fun stuff!

[Remathilis]

Originally Posted by Mercule

The wizard, though, had the most concern. He's the most experienced player at the table (I've got more experience, but I tend to GM) and is somewhat geared for fiddling with numbers, but without the collector's desire for shelves of books. He's also a big fan of arcanists/wizards. He was extremely frustrated with the way the 4e wizard played and felt. It felt extremely de-powered to him, and not having any rules for rituals (KotS rules, only) really killed the utility aspect of wizards.

He likes Vancian magic (at least, modded with the UA spell-points) and I can't fault his preference. I've got something of the opposite opinion, though, so I can't really see it from his perspective.

Well there's your problem!

4e is not a "fiddlers" system. Its quite the opposite. 3.5 made character generation almost a sub-game into itself (cough CharOp cough). while 4e tries to have meaningful choices, your choices ARE a lot more limited than 3.5's modular system.

Specifically, he seems like the player who likes to tinker down to base element (IE squeezing every last useful spell out of his Spell Points). 4e is not the system for him.

[Rel]

I've run only one session of 4e for my regular gaming group so far (a sort of "preview session" for what my upcoming campaign will be like) and they all seemed to be like, "Works for me." So I don't feel like anybody is being dragged into it unwillingly.

However I can say that, at first, I wasn't a 4e fan. When all the information was gradually leaking out about the game before release, my general feeling was, "It's not setting my world on fire but I'll not pass judgement until it is in my hands."

Then I got it in my hands. Well the PHB anyway. Unimpressive. I browsed through it (I avoid using the word "read" hear because I don't think it's possible for me to "read" the PHB) and it seemed fairly crappy. The organization was unfamiliar. The way the classes are structured with their powers was very differnent. I even posted privately in the moderator forum that it felt "Not like D&D". Kind of despised using that trite bit of phrase but it was my impression.

However I'm a curious sort and I couldn't stand the idea of having wasted money on a book I wouldn't use without even trying it so I made up a couple characters and tried the game out with my wife and daughter. Turned out that it felt VERY like D&D. I mean the way the combats went felt so strikingly similar to 3.x that I found the small differences tripping me up. The powers worked much more seamlessly than I'd have guessed and the players found them very intuitive. The roleplaying aspects were, of course, system independant and fun as always. It changed my whole perspective.

After that I started digging deeper into the system and seeing some elements that I really liked (Rituals - Love em'!). I also started to see some things that I knew I didn't like and needed to change, but felt that these changes were all relatively small and easy. The end result is a system, albeit one that I've houseruled a bit, that I'm very excited about running.

I will say that I'm not convinced that 4e has the "replayability" that 3.x did. But who cares? It'll keep us busy as a gaming group for the next couple years I'm fairly sure and that's about all I can ask from any system.