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#2: Final Fantasy Tactics. The epitome of Byzantine politics, playing right out in front of your screen. Enough twists and turns to keep you riveted to the screen, with some mildly cliche swerves thrown in for good measure. Trying to keep everything straight is an intensive, and incredibly rewarding, effort.
I love this game and the War of the Roses storyline.
Someday I am going to run a DnD campaign based on the Lion War perhaps with one of the PCs playing the role of Ramza.
__________________ I play 4E, it's too bad we cannot discuss its flaws yet without flamewars and thread crapping.
Really? I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking. The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world. And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.
I'd prefer Quality over Quantity and, from most of the quests I've done, they're all pretty damn good, a far cry from all of Morrowind's and most of Oblivions
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To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great. To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because I didn't care about the other character involved.
Personally I found the main storyline pretty good... up until the ending which was just bad. Very, very bad. But the lead up to it was enjoyable.
C'mon, the Communism-hating robot was just gold.
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I saw it well summarized by a poster on Ars Technica: FO3 is broad, but not deep. There's a huge world, but not actually a lot of story. And what story there is, is fairly shallow. One sequence of plotline quests, and a handful of one-off sidequests. As another example, it really bothered me that I went on this huge quest for Lucy West, and after it's done she doesn't act any different than before I did it. Way too static.
I was kinda disappointed with that, but the rest of quests are better, in that they have consequences to them.
The Tenpenny Tower quests for example. I took the supposedly 'good' option and... well... it didn't end up being so good.
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All of this criticism aside, I did enjoy the game, but I wouldn't classify it in my list of best CRPGs. Somewhere in the "enjoyable for a while, but wouldn't play again" range.
I agree. It's good, probably my favorite game released this year, but it's not the best. I do think that the ending can color many people's perceptions of the rest of the game though.
__________________ In Soviet Russia, dice roll you!
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I'd prefer Quality over Quantity and, from most of the quests I've done, they're all pretty damn good, a far cry from all of Morrowind's and most of Oblivions
I didn't like Morrowind or Oblivion either. ;-)
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Personally I found the main storyline pretty good... up until the ending which was just bad. Very, very bad. But the lead up to it was enjoyable.
C'mon, the Communism-hating robot was just gold.
The robot was pretty hilarious, but I found the pacing leading up to the final quest really wonky. It went leisurely pace, leisurely pace, leisurely pace, OMGWTF, *END*. It seemed like all the characters went from fairly laid back to "OMG, we must act now!" implausibly quickly. Basically, I didn't feel that the plotline built tension well, but rather tried to cram it all into the lasts quest or two.
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I was kinda disappointed with that, but the rest of quests are better, in that they have consequences to them.
The Tenpenny Tower quests for example. I took the supposedly 'good' option and... well... it didn't end up being so good.
I'd say it was pretty mixed, overall. If you choose the negative outcome for Megaton (detonating the bomb), you get some negative karma. Period. No real repercussions for doing something massively, incredibly evil. People don't shun you. Nobody tries to exact vengeance on you. There's one survivor, Moira, but even though she's been ghoulified, she doesn't seem to care very much!
__________________ 'Imaginary' universes are so much more beautiful than this stupidly constructed 'real' one.
Again assuming you mean FFIII (as originally marketed in the US), AKA FF6 in Japan and in the PS2 release?
Yup, I ammended my previous post to remove any confusion.
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Originally Posted by Darkwolf71
I have a working theory that everyone's favorite FF game coincides with their first FF game.
Interesting theory, but it doesn't apply to me. My first FF experience was with FF1 on the NES, back in the 80's. I didn't particularly care for it...in fact, I beat it in less than a week and never played it again.
Then I played FF2 (also on the NES), and while I liked it better than the first one, the story wasn't particularly memorable.
Then I played FF3 (aka FF6 in Japan), and it changed the way that I look at CRPGs forever.
I am loving this thread. I also like how everyone is being very spoiler-safe, and either masking their text or encapsulating it in SBLOCKs. You guys rock!
Yesterday, I placed an order on Amazon for Planescape: Torment, since it comes so highly recommended by my fellow ENWorlders. I am squeaky with excitement over it, and can't wait for it to get here so I can start playing it.
Based on what I've read in this thread, though, there are a ton of good CRPGs out there that I have missed out on. Most of them sound like they would be right up my alley, too. So I am adding the following on my must-play list of CRPGs:
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Balder's Gate II
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy X
Suikoden 1
Suikoden 2
Now, I've heard good things about Fable and Fable 2 from a coworker...but nobody has mentioned them yet. I've never played them myself, but he has offered to loan them to me whenever I want to try them out. Are they worth my time?
The great thing about PS:T is that it's actually rather hard to spoil it. It's not just the story itself that makes the game so wonderful, but how it's told - you'll want to talk to every NPC you come across (and you come across a lot), and you'll talk to your companions multiple times. And I do mean multiple times. Personally, I'd recommend strongly that you go mage, if just because intelligence, charisma, and wisdom are probably your three most important stats in the game, and not because they help you do the fightan, but because they add so much to dialogue.
On a side note, I recommend you read Dungeons and Dreamers. It's a great book and has a lot about cRPGs and tabletop gaming, and how they're related.
Oh, and a note on the console games - avoid the re-translated Chrono Trigger for the DS. Instead of localizing it with awesome they did a stupifyingly bad blind translation, and the game became a lot more needlessly wordy and lost a lot of charm.
Also, I cannot forgive myself for missing this, but Lunar: Silver Story Complete and Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete are both utterly fantastic. Someone mentioned Oblivion being vanilla in a good way, but for me, these two games fit that description perfectly. The setting is fun and familiar, the story is gripping even with it's slight predictability, and the characters aren't cliche for the same reason Rocky isn't cliche - because they're genuine. It's vanilla like ice cream - some people may find it plain at times, but it's always delicious for everyone.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
Really? I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking. The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world. And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.
To compound it, I didn't think what storyline there was, was that great. To make it concrete, at the dramatic choice at the end, I found that I didn't really give a damn, because I didn't care about the other character involved.
...
All of this criticism aside, I did enjoy the game, but I wouldn't classify it in my list of best CRPGs. Somewhere in the "enjoyable for a while, but wouldn't play again" range.
I kind of agree with you. The plot of Fallout 3 seemed to be a rehash of the (brilliant) plotlines of the first two games. It didn't add to the mythology of the Fallout world at all. I did enjoy playing it, though -- it's still a fantastic game.
Another vote for Planescape: Torment here as well (although it's so text-heavy the game can drag a little). Mass Effect is also very good -- a fully realised universe built from scratch.
Is there no love for the old SSI "Gold Box" games (Pool of Radiance et al.), Lands of Lore or Thief: The Dark Project games here, though?
I tried playing through Torment and got bored very quickly. I pioneered on simply due to everyone heaping praise on it. I kept waiting for it to grip me in some way, but it never did. It just kept getting even more dull. I don't understand why people find it so compelling. It's neither original nor particularly clever.
If one considers World of Warcraft an RPG, which is a topic for another thread, then I would say that hands down it has the best story-line. I've never been into the story of WoW very much simply because the original campaign is very uninvolving. You're very much a witness to the story rather than a part of it.
Then the xpac (The Burning Crusade) improved things a little bit, but I tuned out 'cause it was aliens from outer-space to me (yes, I know that's not technically the case, but...) which put sci-fi in my fantasy and that's like putting orange juice on cornflakes to me (in other words, foul and disgusting, despite the fact that I just KNOW people are going to say, "yummy!").
However, with the advent of 'phasing' in the new game, even I got caught up in the story. It's very much improved the 'grind' of the game and turned the questing into a very cool and involving story-line where you are the central character of an evolving story.
To explain, phasing is essentially a clever way of making the game world interactive whilst working within the confines of a constant environment. Instead of changing the environment, it changes the characters PERCEPTION of the environment. Doing this allows the developers to focus the story on your character. The quests you undertake MEAN something, because to your character, the environment changes to reflect your success.
A good example is one quest chain where you have to infiltrate an enemy stronghold. You gain a few allies, cull a few of their number, and take on the big guy, and once you've done that, the entire area changes to become a base that is friendly to you and has vendors and NPC's and extra quests. Again, technically the area hasn't changed, only the character's perception of it.
The backstory to WoW is incredibly detailed. You might not think WoW is a CRPG, but you have to agree that the story behind it is pretty amazing.
WoWs backstory is rewritten far too often for my tastes. It is interesting in it's own way however, things like elves being mutant trolls are a nice touch.
But more importantly: Phasing is neat in concept, but horrible in practice. It is fun to see the world change when you are soloing, but trying to get a group to do anything while even so much as one character is in a different phase is impossible, defeating the purpose of a massively-multiplayer game.
Last edited by Leatherhead; 28th December 2008 at 07:04 AM..
I tried playing through Torment and got bored very quickly. I pioneered on simply due to everyone heaping praise on it. I kept waiting for it to grip me in some way, but it never did. It just kept getting even more dull. I don't understand why people find it so compelling. It's neither original nor particularly clever.
I think it holds up well next to other games and genre fiction. People whose literary tastes are a little more highbrow, though, won't be impressed by PS:T's "serious" themes.
My vote would also go to either FFIV or VI (that's II or III in the states, respectively).
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I suppose I'll throw in another vote for Planescape: Torment.
I have to say I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned Betrayal at Krondor yet - not too much, though, since it's a hugely under-rated game that never got the recognition it deserves. (largely in part due to less then stellar graphics)
The Witcher is great, and I think it's another game that just didn't get remotely the recognition it deserved. I lost count of the reviews I've read that read overwhelmingly positive, even enthusiastic, only to give the game an 8/10 - it's like "made in Poland", by some unspoken agreement, translated into "-10 percentile points". (or rave reviews of the enhanced edition that got the same or barely improved scores as the original... WTF?) It has an engaging story that's pretty damn original, and it's also quite a long, substantial story, especially by today's standards - which is something that is no longer true about too many games. (Mass Effect, I'm looking at you. Amazing digital actors don't make up for a 20-hour storyline)
Deus Ex I think also deserves at the very least an honorable mention - it's an RPG in all the ways that matter, even if it's missing most of the fiddly bits in the stat department, and it's got one hell of a story.
Really? I found the story of Fallout 3... rather lacking. The world is big and well built, but there's a grand total of ~17 quests in that entire giant world. And, as the OP quoted, wandering around looking for uber-loot doesn't keep me interested for long.
There is more to a game than quests which are marked in your journal and need ticking off to count as "done".
I think my favorite thing encountered so far in FO3 has been the Dunwich Building and it has nothing to do with any quest in the game. It DOES have its own story and reasons to explore and enjoy it.
So, while the number of "quests" may be 17 there are a heck of a lot more stories to be uncovered than that.
Oh, and my vote for best computer game story goes to....
Star Control II
...and its not even an RPG!
Just playing the first 15 minutes until you meet Fwiffo and learn the tale of how the Spathi and Ilwrath came to guard the enslaved Earth (and why only one ship with one being is left guarding) lets you know how awesome the game is gonna be.
Link to the Past is another masterpiece, although many like to say that this isn't an RPG. Even if it's not, it is a perfect game with a good story and compelling gameplay. The best in the series, IMO.
I thought it was classified as an "Action/RPG"? I didn't include it since it isn't purely an RPG, but a thousand times yes! I also consider it the best game in the series, with the best gameplay and a great back story that ended up shaping the stories for the more popular (but IMO vastly inferior) N64 titles. I have to say I haven't played Twilight Princess yet, but excluding that, the next best game in the series for plot is Wind Waker (which also ha great gameplay). While most Zelda games start with a rich background story that then largely fades away while the game progresses, WW has a fairly simple starting story and builds on it as the game progresses, with some of the most fleshed-out side characters in a Zelda game. So I'll also recommend Wind Waker.
But yeah, Link to the Past is my all-time favorite game, and I think everyone should play it at some point.
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The all-time greatest story in an RPG belongs to Xenogears, hands down. The game is horribly incomplete thanks to budget cuts late in its production and has a mediocre translation, but it is still heads and shoulders above everything else I have ever seen. It fluidly climbs from a humble story to something truly epic in scale, and I have never seen such incredibly plot twists be delivered so believably as in that game. It has everything from complex Judeo-Christian allegories to random mecha anime references, and it has one of the best love stories I have ever seen in a videogame. This one definitely rocks.
Suikoden II has a great story, easily the best of any of the Suikoden series (which other than IV is superb). Suikoden III has the better game mechanics and a few great moments, and Suikoden V is very good, but in terms of raw story Suikoden II is the best.
Vagrant Story may not exactly be a normal RPG, but it is nonetheless a fantastic game with an equally fantastic story. This one succeeds simply by mixing intrigue, mystery, and a very personal story in a nearly perfect balance.
Final Fantasy Tactics is a great one. I wish that I had a chance to play its spiritual predecessor, Tactics Ogre, more than I did, since there were signs that the older game may have had an even better story...
Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 FES is a wonderful game with a very good story (and a long title). Extremely believable and likable characters make this one work, and the setting and struggles they have to deal with only add to that. This is the only game I have seen where a choice between the good ending and the bad one is actually meaningful and thought-provoking. I can't wait until I finally get Persona 4.
It is a bit obscure, but the old action-RPG Illusion of Gaia has a great story as well.
Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter is probably more memorable for its unusual game mechanics, but it has an extremely emotional and personal story designed with the same style and emotion that made Vagrant Story so great. If you go into this game wanting it to be a fairly ordinary RPG like the other Breath of fire games, you will probably hate it, but it meshes game mechanics and story together in an incredible way to get an incredibly unique effect.
There are a lot of other RPGs I truly love out there, such as most of the Final Fantasy series, Chrono Trigger, Lunar, etc, but my love for them isn't as story-based as it is based on the combination of story and raw gameplay fun-factor.
Last edited by TwinBahamut; 28th December 2008 at 09:36 AM..
Xenogears is good until you get to the second disk, which is where the developers ate their hands and replaced them with large chunks of ham, promptly forgetting they were making a video game.
Also my god I cannot believe someone beat me to Dragon Quarter. Especially considering I'm one out of the ten people in the entire universe that liked it.
I recently replayed Illusion of Gaia and I cannot believe how I missed some of these things when I was a kid. Good lord, this game is dark. And I don't refer to the in-game lighting.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
You people and your fancy smancy games you buy in a store! Instead of paying $60 for a soulless peice of junk put out by a wage-slave-cog of the giant coporate greed machine; why don't you search the internet for some REAL games like...
Also, I cannot forgive myself for missing this, but Lunar: Silver Story Complete and Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete are both utterly fantastic. Someone mentioned Oblivion being vanilla in a good way, but for me, these two games fit that description perfectly. The setting is fun and familiar, the story is gripping even with it's slight predictability, and the characters aren't cliche for the same reason Rocky isn't cliche - because they're genuine. It's vanilla like ice cream - some people may find it plain at times, but it's always delicious for everyone.
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Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete still is to this day my favorite game.
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