General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
A few folks have mentioned examples of these, but I'll throw in a sub-genre of games that aren't CRPGS (at least not strictly), but still have some fun stories; story-driven FPSs. As mentioned, Deus Ex is the top of that heap in terms of story, is a full-on hybrid Action/RPG game, and has plenty of CRPG elements. Plus, an ending (endings) worth playing all the way through for! Also have to mention System Shock and BioShock, which are in the the same hybrid vein along with Deus Ex. The Thief series has even better gameplay, fantastic setting and immersion, but is much more linear (or focussed) from a CRPG perspective.
Fallout 3 is in this category as well, but as noted by others, is better at telling you're own story in the Fallout setting than telling a particularly compelling story of theirs. The Bethesda-style sandbox games are all like that; FO3 is simply the best example of the type.
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Sam: "Including those two, the new total is nine hundred and one. Guess you owe me that steak dinner."
Max: "It seems these evil men will never begin to understand our peaceful nature."
Sam: "Hope they figure it out pretty quick. My trigger finger is blistering."
-- Sam & Max, Freelance Police
Illusion of Gaia is worth a second mention. That's a very good game with a dynamite story. And one of the few games where you can beat monsters to death with a flute.
I'd also recommend The World Ends With You. The use of fashion as a mirror for the soul is very cool and the story is quite dark with some interestingly memorable characters, and the dual-screen mechanic for rewarding teamwork is bonzer as well.
I am going to put in for another MMO but one that I find has a compelling story.
Lord of the Rings Online: While it is an MMO it also has an major story arc serries of quests (covering all levels) that runs parallel to the Lord of the Rings storyline. This can be ignored entirely by those who don't care, but for those like myself that love middle earth this adds an extra dimension. Plus I also find that the graphics are fantastic and have been done with as much respect for the original novels as Peter Jackson had while still converting them to a new medium.
__________________ Brain: Come Pinky! We must prepare for tomorrow night.
Pinky: Why? What are we going to do tomorrow night?
Brain: The same thing we do every night....TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
If we are evaluating a game only on it's story my favorate is PS:T. But then I'm someone who tends to talk to every NPC and really get their money worth from a game, and that game really needed that to get the max enjoyment out of it.
In the non RPG world: The first Gabriel Knight was pretty good, as was Star Control II.
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Originally Posted by Mallus
My favorite bit is the story of how the ZotFotPik discovered fire, the wheel and religion simultaneously.
There were so many good parts of that game it's hard to pick one favorite part.... But if I was to pick just one, I actually would have to say it's the running commentary from each race at the end of the credits.
SC II is the only story type game I've ever gone back and replayed years later. I knew the story, and remembered generally where most of the "quests" were leading me, but I played the entire game again just to bask in the flavor of each of the different races.
Xenogears is good until you get to the second disk, which is where the developers ate their hands and replaced them with large chunks of ham, promptly forgetting they were making a video game.
Err, not quite... As I said, Xenogears suffered from budget issues. The second disk is where Final Fantasy 7 ran over-budget and Xenogears got cannibalized. Xenogears still has the better story, though.
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Also my god I cannot believe someone beat me to Dragon Quarter. Especially considering I'm one out of the ten people in the entire universe that liked it.
It is definitely an underrated game. The game has incredible mood, a touching story, and great gameplay. It is a real shame that the future of the entire Breath of Fire series is in question now, with Capcom officially stating that they have no plans to make another one anytime soon...
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I recently replayed Illusion of Gaia and I cannot believe how I missed some of these things when I was a kid. Good lord, this game is dark. And I don't refer to the in-game lighting.
Yep, it certainly has some pretty grim aspects to it. I wish I actually beat the game and saw the ending, but the final boss is a killer, and the secret boss might be worse... I really wish that the Soul Blazer/Illusion of Gaia/Terranigma trilogy would get released on the Wii Virtual Console or something.
#3: Final Fantasy X. This was, I think, the first time square really hit it with regards to world building. Spira is as interesting and well-developed world as you'll get short of Tolkien, and unlike it's absolutely atrocious successor (not counting XI) it didn't sacrifice character to do it. Also, Tidus remains the most realistic and best developed main character in the Final Fantasy series. Voice acting could use some work, though it gets bonus points for having the best minigame, period.
X really doesn't get nearly enough credit. Between the raging arguments between the "16 bit Final Fantasy games were so much better" elitists and those whose first FF game was VII (some of the former category in here too, they just think it's cooler to like VI or IV or whatever) it gets lost in the shuffle.
Having played every Final Fantasy, including XI, X is really my favorite. Right now I consider it the peak of what Square has been able to do with the series. The story was well paced, immersive, and intriguing. The characters were like-able and well thought out. The graphics and music were fantastic. The gameplay was dead on: from the basic mechanics to the side quests and blitzball it was just really well implemented. If I had to pick one console RPG as my favorite X would be it. But really there are a host of them that should be played: the entire FF series (almost entire), Earth Bound, the Breath of Fire series, Xeno Gears, the Dragon Warrior series (VIII was cell shaded goodness), Mass Effect.. it's hard to stop listing them.
PC RPGS are a different beast and Fallouts 1 and 2 pretty much own the market IMO. Torment is good, Baldur's Gate, Pool of Radiance (everyone should play at least one Gold Box game), Arcanum... same problem here, it's difficult to choose just one.
Fallout 3 is in this category as well, but as noted by others, is better at telling you're own story in the Fallout setting than telling a particularly compelling story of theirs. The Bethesda-style sandbox games are all like that; FO3 is simply the best example of the type.
Fallouts I and II set the standard for that type of game. Bethesda managed to get about 80% there. I went in with low expectations after seeing the travesty that is Oblivion, but they definitely did a good job with the franchise. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but it was well executed.
It is true though that people that look at the main storyline quests of Fallout 3 and complain about the length are missing the point, it's unfortunate to have to put it this way but they are playing it wrong. The game (and the other fallouts) are about telling your own story along the way to the plot ending, the side quests you encounter, those you choose to do, and how you choose to do them are intended to be different every time you play. You're not supposed to go in and try to do everything on one play through (and that's not even linearly possible) you're supposed to just play and explore (in the "oh that looks interesting let me follow up" sense rather than the "let me cover every last bit of ground" sense. If you ask friends how their game unfolded they may (and probably will) have a different story to tell than yours.
Thank you for playing Star Control II - The Ur-Quan Masters.
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X really doesn't get nearly enough credit. Between the raging arguments between the "16 bit Final Fantasy games were so much better" elitists and those whose first FF game was VII (some of the former category in here too, they just think it's cooler to like VI or IV or whatever) it gets lost in the shuffle.
Having played every Final Fantasy, including XI, X is really my favorite. Right now I consider it the peak of what Square has been able to do with the series. The story was well paced, immersive, and intriguing. The characters were like-able and well thought out. The graphics and music were fantastic. The gameplay was dead on: from the basic mechanics to the side quests and blitzball it was just really well implemented. If I had to pick one console RPG as my favorite X would be it.
I really like FF X as well, but it's the only one I've played, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment. ;-)
__________________ 'Imaginary' universes are so much more beautiful than this stupidly constructed 'real' one.
The problems with FFX was in 1) the characters (Or rather, Tidus and Yuna. Wakka was pretty annoying, but he was liveable; those two were horribly done and unsympathetic), and 2) the atrociously bad dubs. AH HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
For PC, there's little left to be said besides PS:T. Sabathius is totally correct about Star Control 2 though. Just avoid SC3.
For console... I'll add my vote to Suikoden, except 4 (which blew, IMO).
I'm an SNES-era (4,5,6) FF fan (though my first was FF1, sorry Darkwolf), especially with regards to the stories. After that, I'm not so much a fan of the stories, though 9 is alright and 10 at least had excellent gameplay.
Final Fantasy Tactics has an excellent story... if you can stand the absolutely shoddy translation. The gameplay leaves a little to be desired, but is good enough.
I'll throw in Lufia 2, especially the ending. Also, I'll mention Wild Arms 1 and 2 as having decent storylines as well.
Really, the best console game ever though is Chrono Trigger, hands down. It's a bit on the easy side, but the story makes a huge impression and the characters are well done.
Xenogears, on the other hand, I can not disagree with more. I found the gameplay very tedious and boring, to the point of actually detracting from the story. As others have mentioned, it completely broke down in the second half. IMO one of the most overrated games ever.
The problems with FFX was in 1) the characters (Or rather, Tidus and Yuna. Wakka was pretty annoying, but he was liveable; those two were horribly done and unsympathetic), and 2) the atrociously bad dubs. AH HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA. AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
Well, the first is pretty subjective. Tidus (and Zidanne and Vaan) fits a certain archetype that is kind of on the opposite side of the "cynicism vs. optimism" scale from Cloud (and Squall). Which one one finds more annoying largely depends on their sympathy for antiheroes vs. old-skool heroes.
The second...yeah, that laugh was horrible. But for 70 hours, I've got no problem with the vast majority of it. I can say it was better quality than most anime dubs, which is slightly damning with faint praise, but more on-point with how they probably went about finding voice actors who could dub the US version. Kind of makes me wish there was an option to hear Japanese audio with Engilsh subtitles....
What KM said. I vastly preferred Tidus and Zidane to Cloud and Squall in terms of sympathy, and about on par with Terra. (Vaan was terrible, though; I've never seen a "main"character with so little characterization in an RPG). And yes, that laugh is probably the single worst piece of voice acting I've ever heard, but I found the rest of the game tolerable-to-good, pretty much the only point that XII improved on.
Also, if possible, get the PSP version of Tactics. They did a retranslation (it sounds alot like pseudomedieval speek, actually; lots of thee's and thou's), plus it has a few extras. Probably also easier to find.
Hey now, I hated Cloud and Squall just as much as I couldn't stand Tidus ;p
As for FF11, here's the thing to keep in mind: the story was changed at the last minute to make Vaan the main character, because Squaresoft felt they needed a bishounen protagonist. He was originally just a side character, but since he was the prettiest, at the last minute, he became the most important.
__________________ Psionics are too sci-fi, not like the traditional method of spell casting that has existed only in D&D, involves research, laboratory work, and formulas, and was cribbed directly from a series of science fiction novels. I mean, come on, calling forth the power to alter the world from your own center of will? That's not magical in the slightest! Not at all like my wizard's spell "Telepathy!"
I have a working theory that everyone's favorite FF game coincides with their first FF game. For me, there is no question that FFVI is the best. I still play through it once evry 18 months or so.
I'll have to dispute your theory. I started with Final Fantasy I (in the states..I think in Japan it was FFIII or something) back on the NES, but my favorite by a super huge margin FF is FFVII.
And, FFVII also happens to be my vote for best CRPG storyline, though if you can look past some of the technical flaws of the game, the story from Lost Odessy (for the Xbox 360) is terrific and full of emotion and Metal Gear Solid 4 is also very good (though I'm not that last one counts as a CRPG...).
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Last edited by Nightchilde-2; 30th December 2008 at 02:49 PM..
I don't play standard computer games (only MMOs, because I like the socialization and being able to talk with / roleplay with actual people), so I'm unfamiliar with the awesomeness that is Planescape: Torment.
For MMOs, the best 'story' I've read so far is in Shadowbane. Other MMOs, like Dark Ages of Camelot or Age of Conan have some fascinating *classes* to play and encounters and questlines and all of that, but they feel a little more class/encounter focused than world-focussed at certain times, and an obvious comparison comes to mind, which I will avoid for the sake of my sanity.
Shadowbane was the first to have such a richly detailed world that I got sucked into checking their site daily to read new stuff, long before the game was launched.
The game blows, IMO, but gosh, the world, races, professions and storyline are fascinating to read!
Interesting theory, but it doesn't apply to me. My first FF experience was with FF1 on the NES, back in the 80's. I didn't particularly care for it...in fact, I beat it in less than a week and never played it again.
Then I played FF2 (also on the NES), and while I liked it better than the first one, the story wasn't particularly memorable.
Then I played FF3 (aka FF6 in Japan), and it changed the way that I look at CRPGs forever.
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Originally Posted by Nightchilde-2
I'll have to dispute your theory. I started with Final Fantasy I (in the states..I think in Japan it was FFIII or something) back on the NES, but my favorite by a super huge margin FF is FFVII.
Alright, stop jacking with my theory. It's a good one. >.<
Honestly you two are the first to ever dispute it, but I think you are also the first to say that you started with FFI.
anyway all this talk about FFX has me itching to break that one out again... Hmm.
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