General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I mostly use real-world sources for my modern-day Call of Cthulhu game, so keep in mind this is somewhat modern-slanted.
(1) Google Earth. Technically neither a website or book, it is nonetheless an indispensible source of both ideas and pictures. The Panoramio layer gives abundant photographic views that can liven up any location.
(2) Do I even need to mention Wikipedia? Combined with Google Earth, my Call of Cthulhu games almost write themselves. Having wiki links directly on Google Earth is a godsend.
(3) I've managed to use information from After the Ice in pretty much every game I've run. It's a comprehensive, exhaustive overview of prehistoric cultures around the globe. (For my upcoming game, the intensely-creepy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Ain_Ghazal will feature prominently.
(4) Survivorman is an outstanding show that really lets me liven up outdoor situations.
Hmmm... this thread brought to my attention the fact I really don't use non-fictional sources in my D&D campaigns. I wonder if they would be better if I did?
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
I also have been heavily influenced by non fiction in my gaming, though not all is in books because some comes from my own experiences.
Sword-fighting; Talhoffer, Lichtenauer, Fiore de Battatia or "the flower of battle" by Fiore de Liberi (all of these are fight-books on how to sword fight written in the 12-14th century). Le Jue de Hache (the play of the axe"), I33 (Tower of London manuscript). Some of these are now available as modern commentaries. The Lichtenauer translation, by Christian Tobler is particularly good.
I have also done some test cutting with real swords and a fair bit of sword and buckler based marshal arts trying to reconstruct the old fight-book techniques. I once spent a week in Norway with a guy learning original 14th century longsword techniques. We lived in a reconstructed bronze age longhouse; fantastic!
I have a series of books on the various ages of history that refer to the Venerable Bede for Anglo-Saxon times and the Chronicles of Matthew Paris.
For riding knowledge, I draw on a trip I did to Mongolia where I lived on the plains with mongol families for about a month in Sept 07. I must have ridden many hundreds of miles and slept out of doors or in a Ger (mongol tent).
For bushcraft, l like the books by Ray Mears including "bushcraft", "wild-food" and "extreme survival"
Seems like this thread and the history / mythology one I started should be merged, many seem very much on the same wavelength....
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Mallus; the trick with using real-world stuff is to do what Tolkien did. Use just enough that the players unconscious accepts the fantasy stuff that you mix in with it. Then somehow, the whole thing feels much more real, at some deep emotional/visceral level.
__________________ I don't know half of you, half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you, half as well as you deserve!
Mallus; the trick with using real-world stuff is to do what Tolkien did. Use just enough that the players unconscious accepts the fantasy stuff that you mix in with it. Then somehow, the whole thing feels much more real, at some deep emotional/visceral level.
I think my problem using a lot of real-world historical sources is that I never found a way to reconcile the kind of fascinating details of the sort on display in this thread with the D&D rules --pick and edition-- which turns everything into a fantasy-themed comic book (which, arguably is the the 'form' of the world generated by the rules). The D&D rules have a way of... paving over real historical detail.
Thus I went the other way, looking to a wider variety of fictional sources in order to make my games into increasingly more baroque and textured comic books.
__________________ "We're pimps and killers, but in a philanthropic way." -- Boyd, Dollhouse.
I think my problem using a lot of real-world historical sources is that I never found a way to reconcile the kind of fascinating details of the sort on display in this thread with the D&D rules --pick and edition-- which turns everything into a fantasy-themed comic book (which, arguably is the the 'form' of the world generated by the rules). The D&D rules have a way of... paving over real historical detail.
Thus I went the other way, looking to a wider variety of fictional sources in order to make my games into increasingly more baroque and textured comic books.
This is indeed a problem with DnD, I think less so in the early days because nobody played by the rules 100% (since they didn't work 100%) I think most people played by the rules maybe 20-50% just to pick an arbitrary figure, probably evenly split between those who just didn't bother with the various dead-ends and fudged through them, with those who made up house rules. This was loads of fun but also kind of isolated gamers into thousands of little cliques because everybody played the game differently, so it didn't travel all that well from one group to another.
I think one of the best early games to merge historical AND literary sources very successfully was Call of Cthulhu. They essentially just made a simplified and abstracted rule set which was to a large extent in the background (secondary to the story) and used the historical material especially to reinforce the story by putting the emphasis for the realistic environment the players were playing in, which really helped with the verisimilitude (and made the fantasy / horror elements stand out all the more starkly). The only limit of Call of Cthulhu was that it was for that specific sub-genre.
One of the things we've really lost with DnD which used to be THE generalist RPG is the broad base of different ways you could play the game, as the various loose ends in the rules were tied up with an effort to balance the game, much of the flexibility went away. You used to be able to play high or low-fantasy, a lot or a little detail, very cartoonish / comic book esque or fairly realistic, with or without house rules etc.. Eventually a very specific high-fantasy / high-magic / level climb wealth power accumulation type of play has become enforced. Leading some would say toward WoW the boardgame...
I think the key to making an RPG dovetail well with historical / folklore , IMO, is to have a fairly common sense basis for the underlying rules system. It must be internally consistent yes, but at a level of abstraction suffiiciently simple to allow for fast paced play, yet sufficiently realistic for players preconceptions of reality, physics etc. to fit naturally with the game, so that the rules themselves are not a distraction. Unfortunately we don't have many games around which achieve this.
A friend of mine called me after reading the post on Elves in the History / Mythology thread, and he was telling me how much fun he had 20 years ago when he played his first ever Ranger character. The new class had just come out in Dragon magazine, and he picked Freyja as his patron diety from Dieties and Demigods and did a lot of research to create this great backstory for his character that became part of the game he was playing. He had so much fun he still remembers it fondly two decades since he played an RPG. Now days of course all a ranger means is specailist two-wepaon tank or expert missile fighter for picking off "mobs" of nearly identical monster automatons... and who is him or herself almost identical to every other ranger in the game. I really don't understand how we got to that point.
I'd personally like to see DnD open up again and return to it's roots as the 'general' FRPG which was sort of the gateway to all different kinds of ways to play the game...
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 5th January 2009 at 08:19 PM..
__________________ Words of wisdom from Gary Gygax:
From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
Plato's The Republic is not only a powerful religious parable, but an interesting treatise on government and social virtue.
The late Dr. Lence at the University of Houston believed that a sniper should be set up near every university graduation stage and any student who has not studied REPUBLIC should be shot just as he reaches for his diploma.
__________________ Words of wisdom from Gary Gygax:
From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
The late Dr. Lence at the University of Houston believed that a sniper should be set up near every university graduation stage and any student who has not studied REPUBLIC should be shot just as he reaches for his diploma.
Sounds very in sync with the elitist / fascist mentality of the REPUBLIC and of Plato himself.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
I think what he meant was it was primary mythology / folklore and in that sense 'real' as opposed to modern derivitive fiction.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
I don't have a lot of time right now because of the deadline on my paper for the Navy. But I noticed some interesting comments and sources made in this thread and I appreciate them. I think many here will find them useful.
Quote:
I think RPGs are more like drama or poetry than they are novels, as their essence is in performance.
That's an interesting observation from my point of view for two reasons. 1. I have also often noticed the similarity between poetic sagas and epic works - and fantasy gaming, it seeming to me that fantasy games are often a sort of "poetic saga" reenacted, and so it reminds me a lot of a poetic stage-play, with a chief "background" bard or skald who is the DM/GM, and several supporting poets, the players. 2. I have recently come to view, through my work with simulations and Virtual Reality, that RPG gaming is an early form of imaginative (or non-technological, though nowadays technology is overlapping the medium at the edges) Virtual Reality. If mixed in the proper way with other technologies it could have far wider applications than merely gaming.
Quote:
Mallus; the trick with using real-world stuff is to do what Tolkien did. Use just enough that the players unconscious accepts the fantasy stuff that you mix in with it. Then somehow, the whole thing feels much more real, at some deep emotional/visceral level.
I completely concur with that Ydars and I'm gonna create a thread on that theme, as well as write a paper about it entitled, History as Sympathetic Novelty. By the way, in doing some background research I found out that Tolkien probably developed his idea of the Black Gate to Murder from the Iron Gate separating Eastern Europe from the Byzantine Empire, and that the way Minas Tirith was laid out and arranged was based largely on aspects of Constantinople, as well as other historical cities.
Here are some of my useful internet links. I'll post more sources when I get the time but now I'm very busy. These are a mix of history, research, scientific, religious, open source governmental, mapping, military and other such sources. A lot of these sources come from my files and are based on my old contacts but I think each link is probably still valid. If you find a broken link then let me know and I'll correct it.
I don't know if all of you guys know what a palimpsest is, but this is a very interesting one that is derived from the work of Archimedes that I have been following for years with great interest. I had a better general link for this but it's now dead.
For this site you have to register to view (I have an account) but it is extremely good as it allows you to review many of Leonardo's (Da Vinci) less famous and unpublished notes and works. the invention notebooks alone are well worth a visit.
Seems like this thread and the history / mythology one I started should be merged, many seem very much on the same wavelength....
Seems like we agree. This is a thread on this site that I have found very interesting and a good general background source. Gall, I'm posting a link to your thread here.
Keep up the good work people.
I'm liking what's turning up.
Well, I gotta go. Got work to do and I gotta get to sleep.
Up all night and I ain't a young man anymore.
I think what he meant was it was primary mythology / folklore and in that sense 'real' as opposed to modern derivitive fiction.
G.
Makes sense then.
On that note, I recommend "Bullfinch's Mythology:"
The Age of Fable
The Age of Chivalry
The Legends of Charlemagne
__________________ Words of wisdom from Gary Gygax:
From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
Sounds very in sync with the elitist / fascist mentality of the REPUBLIC and of Plato himself.
Is Plato and REPUBLIC really elitist/fascist? Or have you not studied it enough?
I'll add another recommendation: the works of physical philosophy (Latin: natural science) by the Master of Those Who Have Knowledge.
__________________ Words of wisdom from Gary Gygax:
From my perspective wanting less in the way of rules constraints comes from being a veteran Game Master who feels confident that more good material comes from imagination and player interaction with the environment than from textbook rules material.
more words of wisdom:
Rashness and foolhardiness are harbingers of death, as is timidity, in such adventure setting.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister
First and foremost, munchkinism arose as a contemporary of the OD&D game. Nothing in the rules of that or any other version of the game was needed to make it flourish.
There is no relationship between 3E and original D&D, or OAD&D for that matter. Different games, style, and spirit.
[E]xperience has taught me that everyone has their own gaming preferences, and it is not a matter of "good" or "bad" in all, save in light of one's own preferences.
Is Plato and REPUBLIC really elitist/fascist? Or have you not studied it enough?
I'll add another recommendation: the works of physical philosophy (Latin: natural science) by the Master of Those Who Have Knowledge.
It would probably be less inflammatory to say I find Plato a bit authoritarian and cynical in his analysis, and I personally prefer the Swiss type of decentralized democracy which seems to historically be more stable. Speaking of which, per the OP, I HIGHLY reccommend Terry Jones book "Barbarians" as well as the accompanying BBC / History Channel series that went along with it for those interested in another perspective the history of many of our ancestors.
Amazon
The Repiublic contains valuable knowledge nevertheless and I do actually agree people should read it, it's an important key to understanding many of the foundational concepts of the world we live in.
G.
__________________
Check out the historically-based combat system that has gamers talking around the world: The Codex Martialis, your gateway to the elegant, lethal Martial Arts of ancient Europe and Japan. Fast-paced, cinematic combat is available for your OGL game today. Find out why all the reviewers raved over this system. Make combat exciting again!
Discuss the Codex Martialis system with other players and game designers, learn about new ideas and beta test upcoming releases at www.codexmartialis.com
Last edited by Galloglaich; 5th January 2009 at 10:25 PM..
Barbarians to Angels: the Dark Ages Reconsidered - a nice little book that reconsiders the notion of the "Dark Ages." Books on Fire - a fascinating work concerning libraries that have been destroyed throughout history and what works and information such libraries probably and possibly contained.
Osprey Publishing books continue to be one of my automatic go-to's for any genre of roleplaying game.
__________________ On weird fantasy: "The Otus/Elmore rule: When adding something new to the campaign, try and imagine how Erol Otus would depict it. If you can, that's far enough...it's a good idea. If you can picture a Larry Elmore version...it's far too mundane and boring, excise immediately." - Kellri, K&K Alehouse
Since historical fiction counts, I really like the Sharpe series by Bernard Cornwell Bernard Cornwell - The Author's Official Site - Sharpe Books dot com. It is set in Spain during the Napoleonic wars and includes a fair amount of freedom fighting. There are "squad" "adventures" that would translate fairly well into D&D adventures, and the historical descriptions (like the city and battle of Salamanca) have been very useful for me.
(I ran Sean K. Reynolds' Against the Giants and much of my campaign was inspired by these books.)
For true non-fiction, I use Google images to find real world photos that are similar in look and feel to in game locations. (E.g., a mountain jungle was necessary for Shackled City.)
I'm generally too lazy to look for non-fiction sources that might be useful for roleplaying.
Mostly I'm using Ars Magica supplements (from Atlas Games) which always include an extensive bibliography with the sources (both fiction and non-fiction) the authors used when they researched stuff for their supplements. This is a real time saver for me if I'm looking for something specific. I really wished, more companies would do that!
While working on a case tonight and waiting for my wife to get back from Virginia I developed a bad case of insomnia. If I don’t get to bed by 0300 I’m pretty much screwed anyways and won’t be able to sleep at all that night. So I decided to do something productive to kill a little bit of the time before sunrise.
BOOKS
Ghost: Confessions of a Counter-terrorism Agent – I like Fred Burton (the author) and I take STRATFOR. So when I saw this book it interested me. The book is down-written, and by that I mean it is generally written down to an audience that has little or no previous experience with Counter-terrorism matters. Nevertheless it is a real good read on his personal experiences, and the man has some interesting work methods that I enjoyed reading and thinking about. An excellent resource for anyone with an interest in counter-terrorism, and who plays espionage/counter-terrorism games.
Survive! – This work is by Les Stroud. Now I like Stroud and am a big proponent and practitioner of survival tactics myself, both rural and urban, going back to my days in the CAP, and my childhood growing up in the country. Stroud is to me part of a new breed of survivalists who employ very creative and innovative uses of simple tools that many others might overlook. This book is great, as is his series, Survivorman, which I also highly recommend. I’d like to meet the man one day. This is good for any kind of game that has survival elements included. One day I’m gonna write articles about "Vadding and Survival in both Gaming and Real World Situations."
The Terminal Spy – Now, yes, I like Intel work. I like espionage matters. But criminal and detective work has always been my first love. So when I saw this book on the Litvinenko Case, which I have been eagerly following since it first broke open, I saw immediately that it would be fascinating to me because it combined elements of international espionage (especially the newer Private espionage and Intel Rings – which fascinate me personally and about which I have written a couple of theory papers – not to mention my personal interest in the fact that I have some old buddies in Russia going back to the Cold War days who worked against the KGB ), Intel, terrorism, and, most especially homicide and assassination. So I got it. The book is an excellent work of investigative journalism and detective work from what I can tell so far. If you have any interest in Intel/military/espionage games then this book is not only full of ideas, it is a good and thorough objective examination of the case itself.
TV
Weaponology – A really good series, generally speaking. Not as good as Futureweapons, but excellent nonetheless.
Warriors – I saw the preview for this the other night and really enjoyed it. It seems well researched too.
LECTURE SERIES
A History of Ancient Greece – this lecture is by Eric Cline. Cline is one of my favorite modern lecturers to follow. He is a professor at George Washington University and not a bad anthropologist/archaeologist in his own right. He is also a very good teacher. I generally prefer Madden out of Saint Louis University, but Cline is awfully good at what he does. Speaking of which –
The Catholic Church in the Modern Age – You should really listen to any of Madden’s lectures on the Catholic Church, from any era he addresses, but especially his lectures on the Crusades, which are fantastic (as are his lectures on the Byzantine Empire). They are extremely well balanced and brilliant. Full of historical detail and insight. I’d like to take a class under the man sometime. For now though his lectures are well worth listening to.
Quote:
Since historical fiction counts, I really like the Sharpe series by Bernard Cornwell Bernard Cornwell - The Author's Official Site - Sharpe Books dot com.
Indeed, I am about to start reading Agincourt, which I got at the library yesterday, and is about Hook the English longbowman. It is hard to go wrong with Cornwell, so detailed is his research, and so great is his writing.
The Sharpe books and the series starring Sean Bean, I believe it was (Over the hills, and far away...) are both excellent.
After the Ice 
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