Adventures New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

What I meant was, I hope to bring the cartographer into the loop and earlier into the process than is usually the case with adventures.

Ah. Didn't realize Cartography was such a late step in the process.

[catsclaw227]

I'll likley get in with either basic or expert and vote for 4e, though I will need to wait closer to the end of January. I am assuming that the deadline is still end of February.

[Arawn76]

I'm really hoping this goes 4e, my computers off for maintenance Tuesday and I want to sign up when it's back in a fortnight.

Now to raise as much cash as possible for my patron fee

[Psion]

Wow. It was looking like a landslide for 4e in this thread, then I noticed that Arawn said he hopes it's 4e a bunch of times.

Anyways, I hope it's 3e.

[Arawn76]

Originally Posted by Psion

Wow. It was looking like a landslide for 4e in this thread, then I noticed that Arawn said he hopes it's 4e a bunch of times.

Anyway, I hope it's 3e.

I'm very hopeful

I understand that it's quite close but whichever way it goes I'm sure it'll be a worthwhile endeavour. I would like to be involved regardless of edition but I have to carefully watch my expenditures at the moment and have shelves of great 3e (Paizo in particular) adventures that I have yet to use.

Whereas quality 4e adventures? There's Goodman but I'm greedy for more and Wrath has definitely wet my appetite.

[Zaukrie]

Well, I took advantage of my patronage (until 3E wins) to buy the previous 4E product. If 4E wins, and I get another, that will just be a bargain for me, frankly.

It's interesting to see the closed forums and the conversations of what people want / don't want.

[Psion]

Originally Posted by Arawn76

Whereas quality 4e adventures? There's Goodman but I'm greedy for more and Wrath has definitely wet my appetite.

In all fairness, more 4e adventures would be good. WotC sort of cut their own wrists with the whole GSL debacle.

EDIT: But I'm still in for 3e.

[Protagonist]

I will probably run both WotRK and HotMK with a homebrew E6/4E fils de bast of a system, but converting it from 4E to my system will probably a bit easier and I prefer the 4E trap and skill mechanics.

[Admiral Caine]

Last update I saw.. 3.5 was ahead, but not by a whole lot. That has been the trend for the last couple days.

Interesting we've passed the 50% commission point in only a few days, this one seems to be going fast.

Quite possibly the Paizo Boards had a rallying cry, and this thread hopes to start another.

If it hasn't been pointed out further, you can Donate for one edition and have those funds transfered to the other Edition if it wins (becoming Edition Neutral if you like). Just tell Wolfgang and he'll make a note of it.


I am a Major Patron, and yes.. the basic setting brainstorming is happening fast and furious.

[Alzrius]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Last update I saw.. 3.5 was ahead, but not by a whole lot. That has been the trend for the last couple days.

That's not my understanding. Wolfgang made a post over on his message boards earlier today:

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

Skewing toward OGL/3rd Edition at the moment, which is a surprise to me. 4th Edition will need some major donors (or a number of smaller ones) to catch up.

Similarly...

Interesting we've passed the 50% commission point in only a few days, this one seems to be going fast.

I don't think we're quite there yet. I got a welcome email after I signed up as a patron (Yay 3.5!) and it said:

The project is still in the commissioning phase (we're 40% of the way there as of right now)

Though that's still quite fast. I think that people are treating this as something of a competition between 3.5 and 4E.

[Arawn76]

Originally Posted by Alzrius

people are treating this as something of a competition between 3.5 and 4E.

Which is a mistake, lets leave edition wars and preferences out of what will be a great opportunity for all participants.

I intend to be a patron regardless of edition and whilst my level of involvement will be greater if 4e (my current game of choice) that won't detract from the enjoyment of watching and helping the adventure evolve with a group of creative and fun loving fellow RPG'ers.

IMHO Open Design is one of the best ideas to come about in this hobby in years, there's not a single DM who doesn't at least in part fancy himself a designer/writer. What could be better than seeing an industry icon like Wolfgang or one of his guest writers at work and be able to offer your own input and preferences.

Open design is ultimately a community project and we should never let our own personal prejudices interfere with a chance to be involved with such a fun concept.

[Zaukrie]

I don't agree. I 3.x edition is not worth that much money to me. I have more 3.x adventures to mine for ideas than I'll ever really read in detail. I need 4E material, however. So, for some us, edition does matter.

[catsclaw227]

Yea, for me edition is important as well. I have way too many 3.5 adventures already - more than I could ever use, but I really need a better selection of 4e adventures.

I am going to join tomorrow, but if it doesn't go 4e, I will withdraw my patronage.

[Monkey King]

Honestly, I'm very surprised by the depth of the support for 3E. Maybe some of it is support for the Zobeck setting, which has been built up over time.

I agree that 4E needs more adventures, and in different styles than the WotC standard. Which leaves me puzzled as to why the 4E commission support isn't quite keeping up with the 3E support.

Wrath of the River King turned out extremely well, and this is about twice the size and $5 cheaper.... Plus a full refund if you don't get your preferred edition.

[Admiral Caine]

Originally Posted by Alzrius

That's not my understanding. Wolfgang made a post over on his message boards earlier today:

This post really frustrates me because I don't understand the spirit or intent with which it is written. That is, I don't understand if you're trying to say that I'm making untruthful statements, or it just brings you some satisfaction to try to be an authority on a topic.

I'll assume the best of motives, and that you're just trying to be helpful. You left off one sentence when you quoted Wolfgang, let me add it back in there for context. The emphasis is mine on the omitted sentence.

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

Skewing toward OGL/3rd Edition at the moment, which is a surprise to me. 4th Edition will need some major donors (or a number of smaller ones) to catch up. I suspect that will happen if the ENWorld 4E messages get some traction, or ... maybe not.

I note that you support 3.5, which makes that a provocative sentence to omit. I myself am Edition Neutral.

In any case, Alzruis, it is too early to call the race. On Friday night, 4E was ahead. Saturday it was a tie, then later this Saturday 3.5 pulled ahead, but 4E is just behind. On Sunday 3.5 is still ahead, but it's not a blow out as evidence to the quote above, where I put the sentence you omitted back in. Perhaps I'm just biased but I don't see where I've said anything radically inaccurate.

Good God, I hope you don't expect me to cross-correlate every single update he's given with the Kobold Quarterly forums along with a link and date/time stamp, and proofread every quote for cherry-picking just so I can not be nitpicked to death.

Can we not extend each other some grace?

Originally Posted by Alzrius

I don't think we're quite there yet. I got a welcome email after I signed up as a patron (Yay 3.5!) and it said:

I believe you when your e-mail did say it was almost at 40%, but yesterday afternoon Wolfgang also posted this publicly.

Originally Posted by Wolfgang

The 3.5 crowd showed up in force (I think from some postings on the Paizo boards, but also patrons of the Zobeck projects). We're almost at the 50% mark for the commission.

I felt childish doing that, but for pity's sake I hope we can the stop this oneupmanship and just talk about the Project instead?

Originally Posted by Alzrius

Though that's still quite fast. I think that people are treating this as something of a competition between 3.5 and 4E.

It is a competition. It has to be, because Wolfgang can't afford to alienate either consumer base. Unfortunately, part of the consumer base will be alienated no matter what he does- that's an unfortunate fact of life. However, by allowing customers to make the decision with their donations, he is allowing 'natural selection' to make the determination. Rather than making it himself. It removes that personal aspect of "Wolfgang refused to support the Edition that I like best." Now he can legitimately point to the fact that he wrote for the edition that was financially supported.

And nobody in their right mind can argue with that, especially in this economy.

So yeah- it's a competition. But we each decide whether that competition is going to be personal. I voted for 4E, but I am staying on board as a Major Patron if it is a 3.5 Project. For me, it's not personal, and I can back that up with one hundred and fifty dollars.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I agree that 4E needs more adventures, and in different styles than the WotC standard. Which leaves me puzzled as to why the 4E commission support isn't quite keeping up with the 3E support.

Wrath of the River King turned out extremely well, and this is about twice the size and $5 cheaper.... Plus a full refund if you don't get your preferred edition.

Wolfgang -- if the commission is met before the February deadline, will you still allow the edition race to continue until the final bell? I would like to see supporters each edition get a full opportunity to make a play at the project.

[Alzrius]

Wow, you really seem to have taken my post pretty badly. I appreciate that you're restraining what seems to be some pretty serious enmity there, so let's see if we can't clear up a few things.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

This post really frustrates me because I don't understand the spirit or intent with which it is written. That is, I don't understand if you're trying to say that I'm making untruthful statements, or it just brings you some satisfaction to try to be an authority on a topic.

Well, gee, are those my only two choices? It's hard to decide between such attractive options.

Seriously, I posted that because I thought it was helpful and informative to people reading the thread. There's nothing else there but what you're reading into it.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

I'll assume the best of motives, and that you're just trying to be helpful.

Generally a good policy to have.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

You left off one sentence when you quoted Wolfgang, let me add it back in there for context. The emphasis is mine on the omitted sentence.

I left that off because I didn't seem particularly relevant. The topic was where the patronage was at the moment - Wolfgang's speculation about where it may or may not go didn't seem very topical in that regard.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

I note that you support 3.5, which makes that a provocative sentence to omit. I myself am Edition Neutral.

Really? It seems rather odd that someone "neutral" would call that missing sentence provocative. I thought it just didn't matter, personally.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

In any case, Alzruis, it is too early to call the race.

Which is why I didn't do that.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

On Friday night, 4E was ahead. Saturday it was a tie, then later this Saturday 3.5 pulled ahead, but 4E is just behind. On Sunday 3.5 is still ahead, but it's not a blow out as evidence to the quote above, where I put the sentence you omitted back in.

Actually, it's not in regards to the sentence you put back in; it's in reference to the part I originally quoted. You added back in speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Perhaps I'm just biased but I don't see where I've said anything radically inaccurate.

I didn't say it was radically inaccurate. I just noted that what I'd seen didn't mesh up with what you said, and pointed that out. It wasn't a personal attack.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Good God, I hope you don't expect me to cross-correlate every single update he's given with the Kobold Quarterly forums along with a link and date/time stamp, and proofread every quote for cherry-picking just so I can not be nitpicked to death.

Huh?

Why would anyone expect that of you in the first place? It's not like you're speaking on behalf of the Open Design project or anything.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Can we not extend each other some grace?

This seems a tad melodramatic. It's not like we're in the middle of a flamewar; nobody is calling anybody a liar. It's just a forum post.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

I believe you when your e-mail did say it was almost at 40%, but yesterday afternoon Wolfgang also posted this publicly.

Cool. I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong. I'm just trying to introduce data as I locate it.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

I felt childish doing that, but for pity's sake I hope we can the stop this oneupmanship and just talk about the Project instead?

You felt childish citing your sources? How is that "one-upmanship"?

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

It is a competition. It has to be, because Wolfgang can't afford to alienate either consumer base.

This doesn't sound like very "edition neutral" talk I'm hearing.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Unfortunately, part of the consumer base will be alienated no matter what he does- that's an unfortunate fact of life. However, by allowing customers to make the decision with their donations, he is allowing 'natural selection' to make the determination. Rather than making it himself. It removes that personal aspect of "Wolfgang refused to support the Edition that I like best." Now he can legitimately point to the fact that he wrote for the edition that was financially supported.

And nobody in their right mind can argue with that, especially in this economy.

Just out of curiosity, was somebody arguing with that, right mind or not?

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

So yeah- it's a competition. But we each decide whether that competition is going to be personal.

Why then did you decide to make it so? Because that's how your post sounds.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

I voted for 4E, but I am staying on board as a Major Patron if it is a 3.5 Project. For me, it's not personal, and I can back that up with one hundred and fifty dollars.

Booyah.

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by Protagonist

1: When you sign up for patronage (available again on different levels) you can choose to pay for a OGL or a 4E game. The adventure will be written for the edition more people are willing to pay for. If you did vote for the edition that did not win, you will get your money back.

I will likely have to submit for the 4E version. Given the tide of discussion on Wolfgang's groups, I have low expectations, but I do hope this can be a 4E project.

[Monkey King]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Wolfgang -- if the commission is met before the February deadline, will you still allow the edition race to continue until the final bell?

I'm not sure what good that would do, really. Once the commission is met, the project is funded enough to move ahead, so taking anyone's money at that point for an edition that's behind... Well, it just means I'd be refunding it later. And delaying actual design, mapping, and other adventure/Gazetteer work.

So, barring some reason I've missed, I'll start work as soon as there's a clear decision from the patrons who are voting with their dollars. At a guess, this project will meet the commission goal in late January or early February.

As it stands tonight, 3E is pulling away, entirely due to one major donor who has given the 3E group a huge leg up. There's been a definite rally from the Paizo boards, and no corresponding rally from 4E patrons.

Make of that what you will.

[Matrix Sorcica]

Am I getting something wrong? It's $25 US for a pdf adventure? And Wrath of the River King is $33 US for a pdf adventure?

That's..... not cheap. Could people please tell me what makes these (so far unseen) adventures so special?

On a more constructive note: What's the level range?