Adventures New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Matrix Sorcica

Am I getting something wrong? It's $25 US for a pdf adventure? And Wrath of the River King is $33 US for a pdf adventure?

That's..... not cheap. Could people please tell me what makes these (so far unseen) adventures so special?

On a more constructive note: What's the level range?

It's not just an adventure, it's open design! (If you pay, you are part of the process to make the adventure. Lots of things to learn from that.) It's probably going to be level 7-10ish.

And while WotRK is kinda expensive, I have to admit that after reading it, it's totally worth every penny. But of course, YMMV

[Capellan]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Honestly, I'm very surprised by the depth of the support for 3E.

Well for me, it's not a question of system (3e vs 4e), it's a question of Open vs Not Open.

Originally Posted by Matrix Sorcica

Could people please tell me what makes these (so far unseen) adventures so special?

On a more constructive note: What's the level range?

As has been noted, what makes them special is the chance to directly influence the design.

Case in point: While Wolf's been talking in the 7-10 range, the actual levels will probably come down to a vote of patrons (even if that vote is initially "Do you hate the idea of 7th-10th?", with more options discussed later if the answer proves to be "yes".)

There have already been 3 or 4 polls about details, and several active design discussions are under way.

[Admiral Caine]

Originally Posted by Alzrius

I left that off because I didn't seem particularly relevant. The topic was where the patronage was at the moment - Wolfgang's speculation about where it may or may not go didn't seem very topical in that regard.

Fair enough.. but here's was the relevance at the time.

(3.5 is likely so far ahead it doesn't matter now, but just to frame it in context)

I said 3.5 wasn't that so far ahead. You indicated that wasn't the based on what you had read. I cited the omitted sentence on the basis that, if 4E could catch up with a good push, 3.5 couldn't be that far ahead.

It's relevant because "Wolfgang's speculation" as you described it supports the initial statement I made about where the two Edition were in relation to each other, which you refuted. And you'll see that point or you won't, but that is sincerely why I thought the passage was relevant.

**************

As for the rest of the post, I won't cut and paste quotations. Quite clearly I lost my temper and took your reply very personally, and I regret it and I apologize to you for that.

But here's why I lost my temper, but its really just Messageboard 101. One takes the time to post something in good faith, believing it to be correct and accurate. There gets to be feeling that if even the slightest fraction or nuance of your post is subject to interpretation, that somebody just lurks to point that out. Like an ambush.

Now that's an emotion that I projected onto you, and if I'd had a thicker skin, I would have let it go. After all, its now a day later and what you said really is now the case. So I'm caught with some human frailty and weakness.

As for being dramatic, I talk and write the way that I talk and write. To refer to giving someone grace is something I would do in an everyday situation, but grant you that possibly most other EnWorlder posters might not. But we're all individuals.

Well.. looks like I should get over myself, so I'll take a break and walk away from this thread. However, I still didn't see the need to have what I said pointed out as wrong, until it actually was. Sometimes an emotional display actually has something frustrating at the heart of it. Such is life. Have a good new year.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I'm not sure what good that would do, really. Once the commission is met, the project is funded enough to move ahead, so taking anyone's money at that point for an edition that's behind... Well, it just means I'd be refunding it later. And delaying actual design, mapping, and other adventure/Gazetteer work.

I suppose it makes sense, but there may be some that cannot commit this soon from a holiday of spending, but still want to be a part of it. For me, it may mean that I won't even get a chance to participate in patronage and help the 4e cause, because a decision will have been made prior to my ability to contribute, even though it is well within the originally projected deadline of mid-late February.

Originally Posted by Monkey King

So, barring some reason I've missed, I'll start work as soon as there's a clear decision from the patrons who are voting with their dollars. At a guess, this project will meet the commission goal in late January or early February.

As it stands tonight, 3E is pulling away, entirely due to one major donor who has given the 3E group a huge leg up. There's been a definite rally from the Paizo boards, and no corresponding rally from 4E patrons.

OK, so is the edition decision based upon the dollar amount of patronage or the number of patrons; i.e. if 20 people put up $1500 and 40 people put up $1475 then the 20 people win?

I don't know, that seems a bit odd that a couple of patrons with a lot of disposable income and a hatred for a particular edition can quiet out the desires of a larger majority. I am not saying it will happen that way, but it just doesn't seem fair.

[JVisgaitis]

I signed up for 4e. I have no interest in the edition wars, but if this goes OGL I won't continue with it as I really have no use for OGL material or the process behind creating it. Concept behind this sounds good, now to figure out to create an account...

[Psion]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

I don't know, that seems a bit odd that a couple of patrons with a lot of disposable income and a hatred for a particular edition can quiet out the desires of a larger majority. I am not saying it will happen that way, but it just doesn't seem fair.

I imagine Wolfgang prefers the feeling of warm food in his stomach over the warm feeling of having created a democratic microcosm.

[Arnwyn]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

and help the 4e cause

Heh.

...can quiet out the desires of a larger majority.
... but it just doesn't seem fair.

"Majority"? "Fair"? I see you are new to the ways of business. Darn that pesky "business" thing!

All I know is that, contrary to Mr. Baur's statement:

Originally Posted by Wolfgang Baur

Patronage shouldn't be complex

that's one big Epic Fail, as they say here on teh webz.

What a pain in the ass. Quite simply - why can't I just purchase the product and be done with it? And, more importantly, why can't I get any previous works? Why make it a big complicated pain?

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm sure the reasons they are "limited" are due to it being a weird (and inexplicable, I might add) "patronage thing". Bleh. [I'm glad this kind of arrangement works well for others, though!]

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Psion

I imagine Wolfgang prefers the feeling of warm food in his stomach over the warm feeling of having created a democratic microcosm.

OK, but let's say for example that the commission amount is $5000, but a difference of maybe $100 exists between two different editions of patronage (a 2% adjustment) but there are 30% more patrons for the smaller amount. Would it be in your long-term best interest to collect the extra 2% or appeal to the extra 30%?

Originally Posted by Arnwyn

"Majority"? "Fair"? I see you are new to the ways of business. Darn that pesky "business" thing!

Please.... give me a break. You don't know who I am or what I know about business.

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Psion

I imagine Wolfgang prefers the feeling of warm food in his stomach over the warm feeling of having created a democratic microcosm.

I agree. And who can say they wouldn't do the same in his place? I know I wouldn't.

[Filcher]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

OK, so is the edition decision based upon the dollar amount of patronage or the number of patrons; i.e. if 20 people put up $1500 and 40 people put up $1475 then the 20 people win?

I might be dense and missing the point, but in your example cited the majority would win by a landslide of $59,000 to a paltry $30,000.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Filcher

I might be dense and missing the point, but in your example cited the majority would win by a landslide of $59,000 to a paltry $30,000.

I should have been clearer. I meant that 20 put up a TOTAL of $1500 and 40 people put up a TOTAL of $1475, then the 20 people would win out.

[Filcher]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

OK, but let's say for example that the commission amount is $5000, but a difference of maybe $100 exists between two different editions of patronage (a 2% adjustment) but there are 30% more patrons for the smaller amount. Would it be in your long-term best interest to collect the extra 2% or appeal to the extra 30%?

I agree that is WB were running a straight business, appealing to the 30% (and keeping them as customers) makes sense. But he's set up the rules a different way, and needs to abide by them (for this cycle at least).

I'm sure if your example turns up, he'd adapt for the next patronage cycle.

[Filcher]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

I should have been clearer. I meant that 20 put up a TOTAL of $1500 and 40 people put up a TOTAL of $1475, then the 20 people would win out.

That makes a lot more sense now.

[Filcher]

Also, I'm ignorant of the specifics of his patronage model. Did he declare the right to make the final decision? Or is it implied that he will abide by the dollar of the commission?

[catsclaw227]

I have a lot of respect and support for Wolfgang, having participated in patronage since the second project, and at one time "buying" $60 patronages for two friends in addition to myself, so I understand the process and I know that WB needs to eat.

I guess I would like to see the commission process run its full course (i.e. until a set date, even if the commission is already met), then either refund or give people the option of staying in.

[Filcher]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

I have a lot of respect and support for Wolfgang, having participated in patronage since the second project, and at one time "buying" $60 patronages for two friends in addition to myself, so I understand the process and I know that WB needs to eat.

I guess I would like to see the commission process run its full course (i.e. until a set date, even if the commission is already met), then either refund or give people the option of staying in.

Makes sense to me. I could see a huge bidding war taking place. More power to the Wolf. Keep that man fat and happy!

[Pseudopsyche]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Honestly, I'm very surprised by the depth of the support for 3E. Maybe some of it is support for the Zobeck setting, which has been built up over time.

I agree that 4E needs more adventures, and in different styles than the WotC standard. Which leaves me puzzled as to why the 4E commission support isn't quite keeping up with the 3E support.

You do yourself a disservice. You're offering an opportunity directly to influence the design of a professionally crafted adventure. This opportunity is novel and has value for both the 3E and 4E markets.

Also, to be frank, your patronage system doesn't serve "3E" or "4E", and it doesn't care which needs more adventures. It cares about individuals--patrons--who can afford to support you. Even if the project goes 4E, it won't be available to most of the 4E community anyway. You've offered your services to the first people who can pay you, not to the people who you think need your services more.

Anyway, to speculate: Perhaps 4E DMs are optimistic about the breadth of adventures available via D&D Insider. Perhaps they are younger and have less disposable income. Perhaps they are less organized (only having been around as a community for less than a year) and have a poorer "get out the vote" mechanism. (I suspect many people are interpreting this project as a political election, for better or for worse.) Finally, perhaps they simply aren't as familiar with you or your online presence.

[Alzrius]

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Quite clearly I lost my temper and took your reply very personally, and I regret it and I apologize to you for that.

Don't worry about it.

[Glyfair]

Originally Posted by Capellan

Case in point: While Wolf's been talking in the 7-10 range, the actual levels will probably come down to a vote of patrons (even if that vote is initially "Do you hate the idea of 7th-10th?", with more options discussed later if the answer proves to be "yes".)

Indeed. However, the levels are pretty much always in the 8-12 level range.

[Rechan]

So, once we purchase a patronage, where should we go/what should we do to sign up/get designated?