Adventures New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King - Page 6

Monkey King · 9th January 2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Wolfgang, I can't find on KQ or Open Design where people are discussing the conversion. Maybe my patron level isn't allowing me to see the posts?

Sorry, it's been mostly me and a few of the regulars, as I'm trying to line up not just patrons but also professionals, such as a second editor (I wouldn't make the 3.5E editor edit the manuscript twice!) and a developer. No point in doing a halfway job.

I'll have an email for all the 4E patrons when/if this effort goes live, and there will be plenty of chances to participate in 4E-ification during review by senior patrons, polls, and playtest.

JoeGKushner · 9th January 2009, 04:39 AM

And if the 4e crowd wins, will there be a 3e conversion?

Psion · 9th January 2009, 04:40 AM

In for 3e.

Monkey King · 9th January 2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeGKushner

And if the 4e crowd wins, will there be a 3e conversion?

At the moment, no.

I think it's actually somewhat easier to go from 3 to 4 than the reverse. If 4E patrons do overtake the 3e patrons on the commission (still a longshot, but possible), well, then we'll see.

Jack99 · 9th January 2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey King

At the moment, no.

I think it's actually somewhat easier to go from 3 to 4 than the reverse. If 4E patrons do overtake the 3e patrons on the commission (still a longshot, but possible), well, then we'll see.

I thought we were close.

Gothmog · 9th January 2009, 10:00 AM

Hi Wolfgang,

Is there any chance that if this thing goes 3e, the people who supported 4e could still get this?

(From your site)
"Bonus For 4th Edition: If commissioned for 4th Edition play, this project will also include a 48-page Delver's and Flyer's Gazetteer. We'll create new dwarven rituals, dwarven magical items, and clan lore and PC clan feats, and a LOT of new gear usable by non-dwarves as well. Plus a section of DM hazards for the delvers, adventure seeds for the DM, and a small horde of monsters appropriate to the setting. And whatever else senior patrons request."

I'd love to see something like this for 4e, because it would fill a spot that is currently vacant in the 4e rules- and I'm sure others would want to see it as well.

DaveMage · 9th January 2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack99

I thought we were close.

The good news for you, though, is that you've got plenty of 4E love from a lot of different sources. (Not to mention a conversion for this one.)

Us 3.5ers have OD and Paizo for print stuff these days. That's about it.

Protagonist · 9th January 2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMage

The good news for you, though, is that you've got plenty of 4E love from a lot of different sources. (Not to mention a conversion for this one.)

Us 3.5ers have OD and Paizo for print stuff these days. That's about it.

So, pray, tell me where are all those fantastic 4e adventures en par with OD?

Zaukrie · 9th January 2009, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protagonist

So, pray, tell me where are all those fantastic 4e adventures en par with OD?

Agreed. Outside of WotC and Goodman, we have virtually nothing for 4E right now. There are hundreds (thousands) of 3.x adventures out there.

And, given what I've read of Wrath so far, none of that compares to Wolfgang's work.

Jack99 · 9th January 2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMage

The good news for you, though, is that you've got plenty of 4E love from a lot of different sources. (Not to mention a conversion for this one.)

Us 3.5ers have OD and Paizo for print stuff these days. That's about it.

Do not get me wrong DaveMage, it's not that I do not feel with you. And I will definitely be happy for you guys, if it turns out to be a 3.5 But as some have pointed out, you do have eight years and about 700 adventures of 3.x material already. And aside from the latest WotC adventures in the HPE-serie, there is not much great stuff out there for 4e. Goodman Games have yet to deliver anything above average adventure-wise.

Aside from that, I am not paying $75 for a conversion. Wrath of the River King might have been great, but there are limits to my insanity. Besides, while it's certainly possible to convert and get a good result, I am quite convinced that if you want truly great, you design the adventure so that it takes advantage of the system's strengths.

Anyway, my comments weren't meant to start a debate on which edition deserves it more. I was just expressing the fact that I thought it was a relatively close call, while Wolfgang's comments made it very much seem like something that was already settled. I do not begrudge him. He prefers 3.5, and would thus prefer to write for that. No hard feelings, we can't all like the same edition

Cheers

Admiral Caine · 9th January 2009, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack99

Anyway, my comments weren't meant to start a debate on which edition deserves it more. I was just expressing the fact that I thought it was a relatively close call, while Wolfgang's comments made it very much seem like something that was already settled. I do not begrudge him. He prefers 3.5, and would thus prefer to write for that. No hard feelings, we can't all like the same edition

Cheers

I don't mean to speak for Wolfgang (though I have come perilously close at times, so I'm sensitive that I don't)...

... I don't think I'd describe him as preferring 3.5.
... I don't think I'd describe him as preferring 4E.

He's in a tough bind a lot of the time. The reason being is that some of his customer base, both in Open Design and Kobold Quarterly, has demonstrated the capacity to draw a line in the sand and defy him to cross over it.

I don't mean to generalize anybody, but I've read a lot of posts from people who were deadly serious that they would not spend one cent to support a certain edition. Not one cent.

I don't judge or condemn them. Its their money. Please I hope no one twists that out of context and says claims that I am saying that there is something wrong with that, because that would be absuing my words. People have a right to spend their money the way they wish.

But in strictly my personal interpretation, my very own feelings (as in I am not speaking for Wolgang!!!!)-

It comes across, to me, as an ultimatium. "On my mother's grave you'll never see a thin dime for that Edition. Not now, not ever!" And then there is an unspoken and unsettling concern that he might not see them again, even if he writes for the Edition of their choice- next time.

(For the sake of ludicrous redunancy, I am not a spokesperson for Wolfgang, this is all my interpretation.)

He took a chance on Wrath of the River King, but the subtlety that I'll point out to you, good Jack, is that Tales was written at the same time and released a few weeks before Wrath. Even though it was hard on Wolfgang to do so. But you see what I'm getting at? There was no time for anybody to get jealous.

So how does anybody react to an ultimatium?

You let the money decide.

Its the only way to keep from pissing people off, because the very same logic that defends the choice of every person ("Its my money, and I'll spend it as I please") is the same logic that protects Wolfgang from personally alienating his fan/customer base. "Its what I was paid to write"

Jack, I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I don't think Wolfgang is really allowed to have a preference. At least not one he can share with the general public.

DaveMage · 9th January 2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protagonist

So, pray, tell me where are all those fantastic 4e adventures en par with OD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaukrie

Agreed. Outside of WotC and Goodman, we have virtually nothing for 4E right now. There are hundreds (thousands) of 3.x adventures out there.

And, given what I've read of Wrath so far, none of that compares to Wolfgang's work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack99

Do not get me wrong DaveMage, it's not that I do not feel with you. And I will definitely be happy for you guys, if it turns out to be a 3.5 But as some have pointed out, you do have eight years and about 700 adventures of 3.x material already. And aside from the latest WotC adventures in the HPE-serie, there is not much great stuff out there for 4e. Goodman Games have yet to deliver anything above average adventure-wise.

Ok, all of you do make good points.

*sigh*

catsclaw227 · 9th January 2009, 07:06 PM

I'd like to see the breakdown of patronage dollars by edition and number of patrons by edition. I wonder how these two metrics compare to each other.

catsclaw227 · 9th January 2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack99

Besides, while it's certainly possible to convert and get a good result, I am quite convinced that if you want truly great, you design the adventure so that it takes advantage of the system's strengths.

This is one of my concerns. Having some experience with 4e conversions of mid-level 3.5 content (Age of Worms), I learned that I couldn't just adjust monsters and convert things 1:1. Sure, you can do this, and maybe even the Players won't notice much, but it will feel stale unless you go all out and do a thorough and deep conversion.

It requires changing the encounter areas around and modifying maps to take advantage of 4e strengths. This means that while the Undermountain-style maps make this a bit easier (since there will be lots of "unexplored" areas), they would each require conversion at a core level.

It also requires altering the treasure significantly enough so that there is less, but appropriate for the adventure. This means determining how much treasure is appropriate via parcels, then going through the entire adventure and changing treasure.

Really everything encounter-wise needs a tweak to make a true 4e adventure, and the only thing that would stay the same would be the fluff.

Is is possible to make an adventure edition neutral and then have an OGL and 4e encounter notes? I know that settings can be done this way because they can be fundamentally fluff, but there are some that feel like a setting should take the system mechanics and be built on those assumptions instead of build a setting and use the mechanics you want. I don't know if it would work with an adventure though.

Either way, I believe that it needs to be a 4e version, not a 4e conversion.

Jack99 · 9th January 2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

Jack, I guess this is a long winded way of saying that I don't think Wolfgang is really allowed to have a preference. At least not one he can share with the general public.

I agree 100% with your very long way of saying what you wanted. It's just what I think I read between the lines of his posts. Either way, I will never hold it against him. And while I won't invest in 3.x adventures, I will certainly be back the next time he makes a 4e adventure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMage

Ok, all of you do make good points.

*sigh*

It happens once a year or so!

Admiral Caine · 9th January 2009, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

This is one of my concerns. Having some experience with 4e conversions of mid-level 3.5 content (Age of Worms), I learned that I couldn't just adjust monsters and convert things 1:1. Sure, you can do this, and maybe even the Players won't notice much, but it will feel stale unless you go all out and do a thorough and deep conversion.

It requires changing the encounter areas around and modifying maps to take advantage of 4e strengths. This means that while the Undermountain-style maps make this a bit easier (since there will be lots of "unexplored" areas), they would each require conversion at a core level.

It also requires altering the treasure significantly enough so that there is less, but appropriate for the adventure. This means determining how much treasure is appropriate via parcels, then going through the entire adventure and changing treasure.

Really everything encounter-wise needs a tweak to make a true 4e adventure, and the only thing that would stay the same would be the fluff.

Is is possible to make an adventure edition neutral and then have an OGL and 4e encounter notes? I know that settings can be done this way because they can be fundamentally fluff, but there are some that feel like a setting should take the system mechanics and be built on those assumptions instead of build a setting and use the mechanics you want. I don't know if it would work with an adventure though.

Either way, I believe that it needs to be a 4e version, not a 4e conversion.

Catsclaw,

If you're signed up as a 4E voting patron, Wolfgang has started a specific conversation about a 4E version over at the LiveJournal.. about the same time you posted this.

For once, I'm not going to play amatuer mouthpiece, but I encourage 4E Patrons to go over and join the conversation.. whether they intend on staying or not.

Monkey King · 9th January 2009, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack99

He prefers 3.5, and would thus prefer to write for that. No hard feelings, we can't all like the same edition

Well, not true.

I enjoy some elements of 3.5 more than 4E, and some elements of 4E much more than 3.5.

When you spend a lot of time designing, you start to see that they have strengths and weaknesses. Heck, there are parts of 2E I still think of fondly.

DaveMage · 9th January 2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey King

. Heck, there are parts of 2E I still think of fondly.

Giant. Space. Hamsters.

catsclaw227 · 9th January 2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

If you're signed up as a 4E voting patron, Wolfgang has started a specific conversation about a 4E version over at the LiveJournal.. about the same time you posted this.

That's cool. I'll hop over there after work, see what I can do to add to the conversation.

Rechan · 9th January 2009, 08:41 PM

I think I will be seeking a refund. It looks like the Senior/Expert patrons will be doing the bulk of the conversion effort, and I'm not spending more cash to be a higher-level patron just to work on the Conversion of a product. If it went 4e, that's another story, but the way Wulfgang is talking, that isn't going to happen.