Adventures New Open Design: Halls of the Mountain King

[Jack99]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Well, not true.

I enjoy some elements of 3.5 more than 4E, and some elements of 4E much more than 3.5.

When you spend a lot of time designing, you start to see that they have strengths and weaknesses. Heck, there are parts of 2E I still think of fondly.

Well I am glad that my gut turned out to be wrong. As I said, it was just a vibe I felt between the lines of some of your posts.

Cheers and good luck with whatever happens to HotMK.

[vic20]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I think I will be seeking a refund. It looks like the Senior/Expert patrons will be doing the bulk of the conversion effort, and I'm not spending more cash to be a higher-level patron just to work on the Conversion of a product. If it went 4e, that's another story, but the way Wulfgang is talking, that isn't going to happen.

Hold off until the project is officially OGL before refunding of course! Maybe this is what you're saying, but I want to be sure that you're not pulling out before the votes are counted. It's baked into the "contract" that if you don't get the version you wanted, your money will be refunded anyway.

My ($25 account) vote is for 4E as well. If it doesn't go this way, I'll be pulling out, as I'm not as interested in a conversion project as I am a native project. It seems as though this is the likely outcome so far, but you never know. Some 4E sugar-daddy could come along and drop some phat bucks....

[Admiral Caine]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I think I will be seeking a refund. It looks like the Senior/Expert patrons will be doing the bulk of the conversion effort, and I'm not spending more cash to be a higher-level patron just to work on the Conversion of a product. If it went 4e, that's another story, but the way Wulfgang is talking, that isn't going to happen.

Go ask him specifically over at the LJ.

1,) Find out if that is actually the situation, versus a possible misunderstanding.

2.) Suggest that 4E folks get full participation since the other edition is 'headlining'. Make your case. All you can do is ask.

And remember, he can't do all the work himself so he's going to hire a few Professionals to help. That isn't necessarily excluding you and me, that's making sure that the job gets finished on time and in a professional mannner. Friend, I assure you that I am as Senior as they get on this project, and I'm not on "Team Expert" either.

So let's ask him.

I'm not trying to tell you how to think or feel, just talk to the guy. Don't act on mere assumption. Remember that he's a person, and this is more of a labor of love than a revenue stream (cause it aint).

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by vic20

It's baked into the "contract" that if you don't get the version you wanted, your money will be refunded anyway.

I'm pretty sure that if that's teh case (you automatically get your money back), then you're no longer a patron, and can't really access the discussions in the first place, yes?

No, I don't plan on pulling out until the fat lady has sung.

Originally Posted by Admiral Caine

1,) Find out if that is actually the situation, versus a possible misunderstanding.

I did. The discussion went:

Wolfgang: This conversion will certainly involve knocking down and rebuilding entire encounters, but not maps, plot arcs, area descriptive text, or characters.

Rechan: What level do I have to pay for in order to help re-build the encounters/work on the monsters?

I realize you want to reward the Senior/Expert patrons, but that is a lot of work for a few people, whlie you have lower level patrons willing to do the work.

Wolfgang: If I don't have enough help from those patrons, I'll certainly be asking for it elsewhere. It's a bit too early to say how large that effort might need to be.

I don't want to bilk Wulfgang out of cash. Or make unreasonable demands, so I don't know about #2.

[Admiral Caine]

Originally Posted by Rechan

I don't want to bilk Wulfgang out of cash. Or make unreasonable demands, so I don't know about #2.

Edition wars, they do suck my friend.


I'd offer to step outside and smoke, but that stuff will kill ya.

[RichGreen]

Hi,

According to the latest update from Wolfgang, 4e needs just over 20 patrons to reach the commission (vs 12 for 3e).


Richard

[catsclaw227]

One thing that concerns me was this post from Wolfgang in the 4e conversion thread on OD if it goes OGL....

Originally Posted by Wolfgang Baur on Open Design

Despite this post, the design and work once the commission is met will be all 3E/OGL. When there's playtest-ready material, that will be handed off to the 4E conversion crew. The mainline discussion here is (make no mistake) going to be about the 3E adventure, story, characters, and challenges.

I am concerned that if there aren't ANY 4e considerations during the design process, then we'll get a half-mashed conversion with maybe a few map changes and different monsters. That's not really what I want in an adventure, unless I am planning on doing a specific homebrew conversion and I have some flexibility to make changes on the fly.

What it needs is a 4e version, not conversion.

Also, only Expert level or higher can participate in the conversion ($50+). That sucks because I would love to help, but won't add funds to my patronage to just be able to sneak a monster in or make some map changes.

Heck, I only paid $60 for my DDI subscription and I get a LOT more than a converted 4e adventure.

It's too bad. I am starting to think I will pull my patronage if it goes OGL instead of participating. My time is precious and I don't want to pay EXTRA to work on a conversion project.

Maybe a future project will be 4e from the start, like Wrath of the River King, which turned out excellent.

[Monkey King]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

I am concerned that if there aren't ANY 4e considerations during the design process, then we'll get a half-mashed conversion with maybe a few map changes and different monsters. That's not really what I want in an adventure, unless I am planning on doing a specific homebrew conversion and I have some flexibility to make changes on the fly.

It's totally your call if you think (based on the discussion to date) that this project won't meet your needs. I expect I'll be refunding some 4E patrons, unless the commission swings the other way at the last minute.

Now, those who stick around will get to judge the value of the results. I'm starting to think that the 4E crowd and the 3E crowd can't be reconciled; both are now complaining that a conversion will somehow make the adventure less worthwhile.

I take that as a challenge, of course, and I think the situation is quite the opposite. A conversion shows a designer a lot about what decisions get made and why. Doing the OGL design with 4E conversion in mind sets things up for success in conversion, and I'm pretty excited about it as a way to illuminate what each edition does well.

Really, though, if you are already certain you will be disappointed, I think taking the refund would be the smart choice.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Now, those who stick around will get to judge the value of the results. I'm starting to think that the 4E crowd and the 3E crowd can't be reconciled; both are now complaining that a conversion will somehow make the adventure less worthwhile.

I take that as a challenge, of course, and I think the situation is quite the opposite. A conversion shows a designer a lot about what decisions get made and why. Doing the OGL design with 4E conversion in mind sets things up for success in conversion, and I'm pretty excited about it as a way to illuminate what each edition does well.

I don't think the adventure would be less worthwhile if there is a conversion, in my eyes it's value increases. And I totally agree that a conversion will show a lot about the decisions. I may stick around just to learn from that experience as well, and who knows, maybe the conversion process will bear amazing fruit!

And I know you felt that the changes I was concerned about were really big, but I might have overstated how dramatic they need to be. Just, some areas in 3.5 just won't work well in 4e and vice versa, that's all.

Well, we'll see how things go. The money is in the pot already, no need to take it out yet. I have no doubt that the 4e conversion process will be a very educational experience.

[Zaukrie]

I'm conflicted on this point. Wolfgang, if there is a conversion, does that mean we get a 4E product, basically?

I assume it means we don't get the bonus 4E item, correct?

I'm likely to stick around to see if they can do a conversion, and my job is safe for this year (I think)...plus the previous adventure really is quite good.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

Really, though, if you are already certain you will be disappointed, I think taking the refund would be the smart choice.

IMHO it's the point that you have to pay $50+ just to be part of a conversion project. Regardless of the quality of the adventure, you're paying more money to do less in the patron project.

[Monkey King]

Originally Posted by Zaukrie

I'm conflicted on this point. Wolfgang, if there is a conversion, does that mean we get a 4E product, basically?

I assume it means we don't get the bonus 4E item, correct?

Yes, you do basically get a 4E adventure. Perhaps a month or two later than otherwise.

I've been avoiding the discussion of the 4E Gazetteer, mostly because there's no way for me to know right now how many 4E patrons will take a full or partial refund, and how many will continue with the project.

Ask me about the Gazetteer again after the greenlight/launch. Maybe there will be enough funds to do the 4E Gazetteer book.

[Monkey King]

Originally Posted by Rechan

IMHO it's the point that you have to pay $50+ just to be part of a conversion project. Regardless of the quality of the adventure, you're paying more money to do less in the patron project.

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying here. Do less of what, exactly, than an equivalent 3E patron?

Heck, since there are fewer 4E patrons than OGL/3E patrons, I suppose you could argue that there's *more* options, since fewer people will be interested overall. Kind of a stretch, maybe.

[Rechan]

Originally Posted by Monkey King

I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying here. Do less of what, exactly, than an equivalent 3E patron?

A 3e patron is making the module for their edition.

A 4e patron has to convert the module, which is extra work.

But only a small number of those patrons are getting to actually do the conversion, because they paid more to have the "privilege" to do it. It's like paying full price for someone else's left-overs to reheat yourself.

Heck, since there are fewer 4E patrons than OGL/3E patrons, I suppose you could argue that there's *more* options, since fewer people will be interested overall.

But you still have to be a senior/expert just to do it. Being a 4e patron on a 3e project is all ready a disadvantage, because you're doing twice, if not three times the work to go after every thing to try and make it work for a different system, but you have to pay just as much as a 3e senior/expert to get the privilege to do the conversion in the first place.

[Qwillion]

I am an OGL supporter (I went the whole $150).

I think a conversion enhances the project and I applaud The Monkey King for wading into a legal gray area of any conversion, if it went 4e but there would be a 3.X conversion I would still remain a member.

Heck I am doing an unofficial conversion to Arcana Evolved for my homebrew game regardless!

I do think that the support for both 4e and OGL shows that Open Design to do a second project. Perhaps the Monkey King might pick a freelancer to work on this second project as stand alone 4E project (perhaps with a 3.5 conversion). I am sure a contributer to Wrath of the River King might have stood out, and could be trusted even to manage the project.

Anyway I just wanted to say thank you to The Monkey King for taking the risk of a conversion (the legal gray area that it is).

[ronin]

I signed up for the OGL tonight and am looking forward to the process. I am not sure my payment went thru however since I didn't get an email letting me know my paypal account was charged. I tried to post something over on the boards at the Open Design site but didn't have any luck doing that either.

I am not having much luck this evening it seems.

[vic20]

Originally Posted by Qwillion

I am an OGL supporter (I went the whole $150).

A level 6 elite ogl-ogre brute enters the fray. The 4E champions tremble at the sight of the immense warrior before them, and brace themselves for the clash.

[catsclaw227]

Originally Posted by RichGreen

According to the latest update from Wolfgang, 4e needs just over 20 patrons to reach the commission (vs 12 for 3e).

Do you mean that it is about $500 to reach the commission for 4e and $300 for the OGL?

I thought it was about how much money came in, not the number of supporters?

Wolfgang -- if you are still watching. How much money would it take to reach the 4e commission and how much money is required to reach an OGL commission?

[RichGreen]

Originally Posted by catsclaw227

Do you mean that it is about $500 to reach the commission for 4e and $300 for the OGL?

I thought it was about how much money came in, not the number of supporters?

That's what Wolfgang said on the KQ forum. Maybe he's assuming $25 or average donations?

Cheers


Richard

[catsclaw227]

Yep, I just caught that comment on his site.

I am curious what the dollar amount requirements are now.