Status of D&D Game Table?

[The Ghost]

Originally Posted by Zaukrie

I'd guess in about a year, if ever.

Frankly, there is one thing I've never understood about some of the anger over this (actually more than 1 thing, but I'm trying to focus here): why do some people feel 4E can't be played, or is somehow missing something, if DDI isn't there? While I understand that it was promised, no other edition had that level of virtual support, and this one does not need it to be viable either.

Actually, for me, 4E cannot be played without the game table up and running. The main reason I had bought into 4E when announced was being able run games online with friends around the country. My local gaming group prefers 3.5E.

The longer it takes for this feature to come online the less likely I am of embracing the entire project. What is the point of investing in any more books or Dungeon/Dragon without the ability to fully use the products?

[malraux]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

Actually, for me, 4E cannot be played without the game table up and running. The main reason I had bought into 4E when announced was being able run games online with friends around the country. My local gaming group prefers 3.5E.

The longer it takes for this feature to come online the less likely I am of embracing the entire project. What is the point of investing in any more books or Dungeon/Dragon without the ability to fully use the products?

And none of the third party applications are acceptable?

[The Ghost]

Originally Posted by malraux

And none of the third party applications are acceptable?

Which ones are you referring to? I am not very familiar with anything outside of what WotC does.

[ki11erDM]

Originally Posted by Charwoman Gene

I'm actually more confident now than I was earlier, just I don't expect it before 2010.

/agree

I do think they will do it. Just to much at stake to not move some play online. 2010 sounds good... but it might be a matter of how much they actually got done before they hit the pause button.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Scribble

My guess is the question was asked: "Why are we loosing out to games like Warcraft?"

One of the answers was probably it's easier to simply log on and play in your free time, then to either find a group to game with, and find time to game.

Will it work? Dunno. I think it might be neat, to be able to log on when bored, and hop into an online 24/7 convention though. No need to wait for my Friday Night game.

See, you STILL need to find a group -- while a "pickup" game of D&D might be fun now and then, the real value to the game is continuing characters and campaigns. It's why roleplaying took off as a separate game from miniature wargaming; the idea of character advancement and story was the key innovation in original D&D. Playing a CHARACTER, not a FIGURE, was the revolution -- not magic and monsters. You still need to get a group together, have everyone show up, and the DM still has to adjudicate the rules, but he has to do so in a tedious fashion, because I can't believe any set of online tools is going to be as smooth or as easy as the DM saying, "OK, those squares are now on fire".

[Spatula]

Originally Posted by Lizard

I think it was a silly idea from the start, it reeked of someone from Hasbro saying "This Dungeons whatsis, it's like Warcraft, right? But without a computer? Why don't you put it on a computer, or something?" I looked at the entire concept and said "Huh?".

Except that it wasn't Hasbro's idea... there are game table apps out there, right now. Clearly someone went through the trouble of building them with no audience in mind, right?

Maybe, just maybe, there are gamers who want to play with people that no longer live close to each other.

Regarding the point of the virtual table being more of a hassle, well, yeah. That aspect still looks pretty crude, but will probably improve as the concept gets refined.

[Lizard]

Originally Posted by Spatula

Except that it wasn't Hasbro's idea... there are game table apps out there, right now. Clearly someone went through the trouble of building them with no audience in mind, right?

Maybe, just maybe, there are gamers who want to play with people that no longer live close to each other.

Regarding the point of the virtual table being more of a hassle, well, yeah. That aspect still looks pretty rough, but will probably improve as the concept gets refined.

Yes, but those programs tend to be generic, and ends-in-themselves... not supplements to an existing game. (You'd think WOTC could have just licensed one of said existing game table programs.... )

While I admit my experience with those programs is limited, what I've seen of them seems much less ambitious than Game Table Online, closer to "Chat room with map and dice roller" than "3d application".

GTO was pushed as the "solution" to "Can't find a group"; the existing other apps are more, as you note, "Keep the old group together". I think WOTC was aiming for a much larger market for these tools than actually exists; hence, the large feature list, budget, and development time.

Perhaps I'm wrong completely, and when it ships, it will Change Gaming As We Know It. I suppose we'll see in... 6 months? A year?

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Lizard

See, you STILL need to find a group -- while a "pickup" game of D&D might be fun now and then, the real value to the game is continuing characters and campaigns. It's why roleplaying took off as a separate game from miniature wargaming; the idea of character advancement and story was the key innovation in original D&D. Playing a CHARACTER, not a FIGURE, was the revolution -- not magic and monsters. You still need to get a group together, have everyone show up, and the DM still has to adjudicate the rules, but he has to do so in a tedious fashion, because I can't believe any set of online tools is going to be as smooth or as easy as the DM saying, "OK, those squares are now on fire".

Won't argue any of that. I'd rather play a campaign then a string of pick up games... I'd also rather play a face to face game.

But if the choice to include some pickup games now and then was made easily available when I had extra free time? I'd be happy to include them.

If I couldn't find a game group anywhere near me and the choice was either ontime game table or no game? I'd be happy to put up with some aspects being more cumbersome as opposed to not gaming at all.

I used to go to conventions in my younger days when I had extra time/money and one was around. It's sometimes fun to hop into a game with people I don't normally game with. I don't often have the ability to do that anymore. A 24/7 online one would fill that gap.

I'm not arguing Game Table should/will replace regular tabletop gaming. I realy sincerely hope it never does. But I can definitely see an added bonus to having it.

[malraux]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

Which ones are you referring to? I am not very familiar with anything outside of what WotC does.

Originally Posted by Aeolius

Given the prevalence of viable cross-platform virtual tabletop applications, I wonder why WotC even bothers to compete in this arena. Instead, they should throw their support behind a handful of the more successful such as maptools.

Originally Posted by Mistwell

For those recommending alternatives, please don't forget about the excellent Klooge.Werks!

Originally Posted by Zulithe

Do what I did: buy Fantasy Grounds II.

Now I'm not familiar with these in detail, but they are all 3rd party alternatives to the WotC VTT.

[The Ghost]

Originally Posted by malraux

Now I'm not familiar with these in detail, but they are all 3rd party alternatives to the WotC VTT.

Hah! I must be loosing my memory because I do not remember those posts in this thread. Thanks for reminding me.

I will check them out. Hopefully the quality is good enough!

[Spatula]

Originally Posted by Lizard

Yes, but those programs tend to be generic, and ends-in-themselves... not supplements to an existing game. (You'd think WOTC could have just licensed one of said existing game table programs.... )

Well, there's where you see the difference between independant creators and big companies. The current crop of apps are fairly generic because they have to be, due to legal issues (although one I looked at had d20, thanks to the OGL). A company product is looking for ways to keep you coming to them and giving them your money.

I do agree that WotC would have been wise to bring in someone with some experience in any case - either licensing, partnering with, or hiring from some of the stuff that's already out there. As you note, the D&D VT was a lot more ambitious than what's currently available, ridiculously so IMO. The concept is lightyears ahead of what's been done to date, and that kind of jump is difficult to pull off - and nearly impossible in a such a short time frame. I'm guessing the bad experience with whoever did the 3e chargen demo probably convinced them that everything needed to be done in-house.

Originally Posted by Lizard

GTO was pushed as the "solution" to "Can't find a group"; the existing other apps are more, as you note, "Keep the old group together". I think WOTC was aiming for a much larger market for these tools than actually exists; hence, the large feature list, budget, and development time.

I'll bet there's a lot of players hungering for a game (or a particular style of game - finding a group is only half the battle) that can't get one in their area. Hard to say how many since there's no one catering to them currently.

Originally Posted by Lizard

Perhaps I'm wrong completely, and when it ships, it will Change Gaming As We Know It. I suppose we'll see in... 6 months? A year?

I'm kinda doubting it'll ever see the light of day, or if it does, its feature list will be dramatically pared down. But I'd still like to see a product that lets me game with my buddies scattered all over with a minimum of hassle.

[Spatula]

And fundamentally, the idea of online pickup games of D&D isn't any different than RPGA-style pickup games at conventions. It's also a potentially better online experience (in that it's more like the tabletop experience) for people than PBEM or PBP.

[Majoru Oakheart]

Originally Posted by Spatula

And fundamentally, the idea of online pickup games of D&D isn't any different than RPGA-style pickup games at conventions. It's also a potentially better experience (in that it's more like the tabletop experience) for people than PBEM or PBP.

And that seems to be one of the main goals of the Game Table application. I've been told rumors of the program being able to do searches for things like "Active Living Forgotten Realms games that haven't started yet for level 3 characters."

You join a bunch of people, play the LFR adventure, get your XP and gold and have it all tracked online, with a copy of your character sheet stored in the Character Vault. It's like being at a convention and being able to be mustered into a slot at any time of the day or night.

Although, I haven't heard anything about the Character Vault since it was announced months ago either.

[Asmor]

Originally Posted by Zaukrie

edit: what I really want is a robust NPC/Monster creator, so I can make fair encounters with monsters of my own creation (or to power up/down an existing monster).

Ask and ye shall receive

[Aeolius]

Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart

Because the reason they gave that it wasn't going to be cross-platform was that they cut development time dramatically by recycling a Direct3D engine that Hasbro owned due to being created for another project.

Perhaps I should have said "from the restart". I am aware of the limitations to the original VTT plans. I was simply stating that, if they were to redesign it from the ground up, scrap the antiquated technologies and build something cross-platform, with a functional z-axis.

[Drkfathr1]

I'm not bothered by the lack of the Table, but I'm not interested in DDI at all, I'll be just fine without it.

What concerns me is the fear that much of the "plan" for 4E revolves around the DDI and the various online apps. I worry that resources that would/should go into the book publishing will be diverted to the DDI, and if the DDI fails or doesn't live up to the expectations, then the rest of 4E may suffer for it.

I hope that explains why it matters to some of us, even though "we don't need it to play."

[Stoat]

The more I think about it, the less excited I get about WotC's 3D VTT. I game exclusively online now, and I DM. Every 2D VTT I've tried (Fantasy Grounds, Klooge, d20Pro) allowed me to drop in my own 2D-maps and tokens with relatively little trouble. I could swipe a map from WotC's archives, draw one in campaign cartographer, or generate one randomly at Gozzy's, and then BAM! game on. Likewise for tokens.

There's just no way a 3D VTT can give me that level of flexibility. I'm certain that it would have to be limited to the 3D tiles that WotC provided.

[Asmor]

Originally Posted by Stoat

The more I think about it, the less excited I get about WotC's 3D VTT. I game exclusively online now, and I DM. Every 2D VTT I've tried (Fantasy Grounds, Klooge, d20Pro) allowed me to drop in my own 2D-maps and tokens with relatively little trouble. I could swipe a map from WotC's archives, draw one in campaign cartographer, or generate one randomly at Gozzy's, and then BAM! game on. Likewise for tokens.

There's just no way a 3D VTT can give me that level of flexibility. I'm certain that it would have to be limited to the 3D tiles that WotC provided.

Actually, if you've seen the screenshots all of the tiles are are 2d, and it allows you to draw and such. I'd be really surprised if they didn't let you import your own graphics.

It's just the minis and some select accessories which are 3d.

[Scribble]

Originally Posted by Asmor

Actually, if you've seen the screenshots all of the tiles are are 2d, and it allows you to draw and such. I'd be really surprised if they didn't let you import your own graphics.

It's just the minis and some select accessories which are 3d.

I think they said certain tiles will be in 3d as well. This wouldn't invalidate your thoughts though, as you could still import other stuff... Just to get the fancy, you'd need to use the WoTC tiles.

[Stoat]

Originally Posted by Asmor

Actually, if you've seen the screenshots all of the tiles are are 2d, and it allows you to draw and such. I'd be really surprised if they didn't let you import your own graphics.

It's just the minis and some select accessories which are 3d.

Huh. I watched the demo videos and oogled the screenshots when the VTT was first announced, and I had in my head that they were 3D or maybe isometric. A good reminder that it never pays to rely on memory.

2D-tiles + ability to import my own = teh winz0rs. I would hope that WotC would go that route, and not try to drive people toward purchasing tiles by making it impossible to import from other sources.