General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I think they said certain tiles will be in 3d as well. This wouldn't invalidate your thoughts though, as you could still import other stuff... Just to get the fancy, you'd need to use the WoTC tiles.
Hence, "some select accessories."
I think some examples they mentioned were things like statues and fiery urns. Definitely not "backbone" stuff, just window dressing.
And here's a VT Feature Comparison Chart that compares a handful of the more popular VTs. Note, however, that some of the information on that chart is a bit out of date.
__________________ Battlegrounds: RPG Edition is new virtual tabletop software that allows you to play any RPG online or offline. It's cross-platform and very easy to use.
Eventually you will get it (I would bet by the end of the year).
I'll take that bet.
It is highly unlikely that the VTT will ever materialize. It's obvious to an experienced eye that they really do not know what they're doing and they don't have the resources to undertake a program that complex. Their history is appalling. So far they've release (late) a glorified wiki, and a barely passable Character Generator (which isn't even actually released yet).
If they even managed to release the game table it would fall under it's own weight. WotC simply doesn't currently have the skills or staff to maintain it.
Unless there is significant restructuring on the project it will never materialize. In the long run that is probably for the best, the train wreck that would result from releasing what they're currently capable of would do far more damage than never releasing it at all.
At this point they would be MUCH better served licensing out the ability to create a game table to a 3rd party and making that the "official" VTT for 4e.
Last edited by guivre; 10th January 2009 at 07:33 AM..
So far they've release (late) a glorified wiki, and a barely passable Character Generator (which isn't even actually released yet).
I'm assuming that the "glorified wiki" you're referring to is the compendium, which is not remotely similar to a wiki in any sense of the word. The compendium is, in my mind, a success, though it could certainly be improved upon, and in its initial incarnation was a complete let down.
The character generated, on the other hand, is an unmitigated success and this is literally the first negative thing I've seen about it. Have you even used it? What exactly are your complaints?
FWIW, I generally agree with you on most of your points (though I wouldn't trust WotC to farm the VTT out, either; 3rd party developers didn't help the master tools or Magic Online very much either...), but that sentence seemed out of place and unnecessarily vitriolic.
2D-tiles + ability to import my own = teh winz0rs. I would hope that WotC would go that route, and not try to drive people toward purchasing tiles by making it impossible to import from other sources.
The last word I heard about this before they stopped talking about the Game Table was that they were likely going to include all of the Dungeon Tiles ever made as 2d tiles. They were going to make 3d versions of many of the tiles, but they were going to charge extra money for the 3d versions. They would also include 2d tokens for monsters, but they were going to sell 3d versions of select monsters.
They implied they'd be really cheap prices. But they seemed to expect that most DMs would find it much cooler to be able to place real, 3d monsters on the table and would pay the couple extra dollars.
__________________ Majoru Oakheart
Secret Attorney of the Guidelines for the <Sorry, you didn't make the DC 20 Perception check, and you don't have another minor action to try again. Next time try finding an Elf to stand nearby you.>
I'm assuming that the "glorified wiki" you're referring to is the compendium, which is not remotely similar to a wiki in any sense of the word. The compendium is, in my mind, a success, though it could certainly be improved upon, and in its initial incarnation was a complete let down.
You're free to disagree, but that's all it is. It's a web based information repository with limited search capabilities. Comparing it to a wiki is more than fair. There is nothing special about it and there's really no excuse that it couldn't have been completed by release.
Quote:
The character generated, on the other hand, is an unmitigated success and this is literally the first negative thing I've seen about it. Have you even used it? What exactly are your complaints?
Yes I've used it and there were a host of usability and stability issues when I did.
An unmitigated success is it? That's some fantastic praise for an unreleased piece of software. It already fails at the number one requirement for successful software: it hasn't been released.
What criteria is this unmitigated success based on? It's beta status over 7 months after intended release? The swarms of yet unresolved bugs?
Far from there being nothing negative, there are swarms of bugs posted on WotCs forums. Enough that it doesn't fulfill it's function: creating legal characters for 4e. New books come out monthly, the PHB II comes out in what.. March? Even IF they managed to iron out enough bugs to make a passable release, they're going to do so just in time for it to be out-dated.
Quote:
FWIW, I generally agree with you on most of your points (though I wouldn't trust WotC to farm the VTT out, either; 3rd party developers didn't help the master tools or Magic Online very much either...), but that sentence seemed out of place and unnecessarily vitriolic.
I didn't say they would or even that I trusted them to. I said they should. Employing one of the companies that already produces a VTT to provide the licensed VTT for 4e would be the best move they could possibly make right now, assuming they chose that third party wisely.
It's not vitriolic, it is an honest, qualified opinion from someone with 25 years experience. The pattern is very clear, this is a mess and the odds are it's only going to get messier. Some companies pull it out, but the overwhelming majority do not, not without a great deal of help.
There is nothing about this operation that doesn't scream train wreck. My professional opinion, backed by seeing similar cases would be that they eventually get the Character Builder out. It's still going to have bugs, but they'll push it out the door is good enough. I'd lay even money that it doesn't come out till March. The limited staff they already have will end up in maintenance mode, trying to get the bugs fixed. It's going to take full time employees to keep it up to date. Even with the benefit of seeing some of the material before hand they're going to fall behind and constantly be in maintenance mode trying to incorporate all of the material released. It's not just the books, it's the magazine content as well, and the LFR material. Between the "content" bugs, and the software bugs that are bound to occur it's going to cost a fortune in developer hours just to try and keep the project afloat.
In the meantime they'll pick the Character Visualizer to work on next, I seriously doubt they'll have the resources to work on more than one tool at a time. They don't have them now and they certainly won't after the CB is released and they are constantly trying to keep up.
The visualizer will seem like a good pick, because it's relatively simple, it's really nothing a hobbyist with a good 3D package couldn't do at home. Though TBH if I were in there as a consultant I'd recommend they can that product completely. They'll still struggle to get it out, but before they do, Hasbro is going to pull the plug. It's going to turn into a money sink and they're not going to stand for it up top very long.
Like I said, I could be wrong, but if I wasn't right far more often than not I wouldn't be pulling down the salary I am. It's entirely possible that DDI can be turned around, but the smart money will certainly not be on that happening.
I have no hate for WotC only disappointment. Nor am I a 4e hater. I own everything published since it's release, except the "premium dice".
Last edited by guivre; 10th January 2009 at 08:52 AM..
You're free to disagree, but that's all it is. It's a web based information repository with limited search capabilities. Comparing it to a wiki is more than fair.
A Wikis unique feature is that other users can contribute to them and add material, typically in an easy way. (Easy compared to creating your own website, at least.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
A wiki is a page or collection of Web pages designed to enable anyone who accesses it to contribute or modify content, using a simplified markup language.[1][2] Wikis are often used to create collaborative websites and to power community websites.
Now, Wikipedia might not always qualify as the best source for a definition, but in case of Wikis, I think it is a very good authority.
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
A Wikis unique feature is that other users can contribute to them and add material, typically in an easy way. (Easy compared to creating your own website, at least.)
Now, Wikipedia might not always qualify as the best source for a definition, but in case of Wikis, I think it is a very good authority.
I'm well aware of the definition of a wiki. If it stretches your imagination too much to understand the comparison, fine, ignore it.
A well configured wiki, or other piece of content management software could have been used to provide the same (and likely better) functionality for a lot less development time.
So far they've release (late) a glorified wiki [...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by guivre
A well configured wiki, or other piece of content management software could have been used to provide the same (and likely better) functionality for a lot less development time.
I agree that it may have been possible to implement the Compendium as a Wiki, but that's not what you said. You said "so far they've release[d] a glorified wiki".
It is not possible for users to edit or add content to the Compendium, thus it fails the most basic comparison to a Wiki. Whether or not the Compendium could have been implemented in the form of a Wiki, by no stretch of the imagination is the Compendium, as currently implemented, a Wiki, glorified or otherwise. I agree with Mustrum_Ridcully that your comparison is thus broken.
It is not possible for users to edit or add content to the Compendium, thus it fails the most basic comparison to a Wiki. Whether or not the Compendium could have been implemented in the form of a Wiki, by no stretch of the imagination is the Compendium, as currently implemented, a Wiki, glorified or otherwise. I agree with Mustrum_Ridcully that your comparison is thus broken.
The central feature of a wiki is not that anyone can add or edit its content, but that the add/edit operation can be done quickly with a reduced set of mark-up (compared to HTML). Hence its name (from hawaiian).
The comparision is fair, but maybe unusual. I suggest we avoid derailing the thread with definitions of what a wiki is or isn't.
Regarding the Game Table, I think it will end up as a big nothing. The character builder is already in a bad state and it won't get any easier going forward with this digital initiative. My guess is it will fail on a technical level. Sooner or later, someone will pull the plug on this money sink.
__________________ Mikael Borjesson, Sweden
The Titan of Titan Games
Keeper of the swedish D&D translations
I don't think WotC will even release the character visualizer.
Think about it, whenever they release new races and weapons they have to add them to the visualizer.
That would require a permanent staff of artists whos only job is to keep the visualizer up to date and I don't think WotC is willing to invest that much of effort/money.
And without the visualizer the game table looses a bit on appeal. Sure, they can use generic miniatures and not custom created ones, but that was a big feature of this whole setup.
(Also, the visualizer alone is also not very useful)
__________________ Everything about RPGs is subjective, so everything I say about them is I my opinion and not hard facts
Having a backstory is good. Using this backstory in game is better. And for that you need background skills.
4E, the game where you play HSMFOS
Heroic
Only good, or at least unaligned adventurers are supported and no monster you can fight is good aligned.
Super-
The PCs become masters in any skill automatically and it is impossible for them to be bad at a mundane task
Mutants
Compared to NPCs of the same strength, PCs poses a ungodly amount of HP and can withstand huge mountains of punishment. That or they can spontaneously regenerate wounds.
From Outer Space
Yet despite no matter how powerful the PCs become, they can never do anything special what the "natives" (=NPCs) can do like animating a skeleton.
[quote=Oldtimer;4621666]The central feature of a wiki is not that anyone can add or edit its content, but that the add/edit operation can be done quickly with a reduced set of mark-up (compared to HTML). Hence its name (from hawaiian).
[quote]
Well, the Wikipedia definition includes the content edition. Wikis were created for purposes like this .
Quote:
The comparision is fair, but maybe unusual. I suggest we avoid derailing the thread with definitions of what a wiki is or isn't.
You're no fun.
Quote:
Regarding the Game Table, I think it will end up as a big nothing. The character builder is already in a bad state and it won't get any easier going forward with this digital initiative. My guess is it will fail on a technical level. Sooner or later, someone will pull the plug on this money sink.
The Character Builder is delayed, but its functional state looks good.
I hope the Game Table will make it through. But it is horribly delayed, so the chances are less good. It depends a lot on how much money the DDI and D&D 4 brings in - if that is still good, they will have a strong incentive, but it any of it weakens, well, it doesn't look so good. Unless they have reason to believe that this will turn things around in their favor...
Thoughts of the Arch Chancellor - My weblog on EN World - containing game related material, like: house rules, design theories, reviews, play reports, adventure ideas
Secret Member of <Think we would just hide our secret with a spoiler tag, eh?>
The Character Builder is delayed, but its functional state looks good.
No it doesn't. Not really. It only contains data for levels 1-3 and there are loads of data errors. Then there are lots of coding errors (crashes and unexpected behaviour). The installation package uses InstallShield, but it doesn't work very well. It doesn't even check for the presence of .NET framework 3.5 sp1, which is a requirement and should be handled by the installer. On my plain vanilla XP Pro system it won't even install. I had to take apart the MSI file and modify it before I got it onto that system. Good thing I have the tools and knowledge to do that.
With over 30 years of professional experience with software development, I don't think their development project is doing too well. Had I been asked my professional opinion about it, I would have given it a rather low grade.
The few developers they have on this are probably struggling heroically, but heroics rarely produce good software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully
I hope the Game Table will make it through. But it is horribly delayed, so the chances are less good. It depends a lot on how much money the DDI and D&D 4 brings in - if that is still good, they will have a strong incentive, but it any of it weakens, well, it doesn't look so good. Unless they have reason to believe that this will turn things around in their favor...
I also hope, or rather hoped. When it was announced almost 17 months ago, I was excited. I had high hopes. I saw that they used an external source (Radiant Machine) for the development and considered that a very good idea. Then everything changed and my hopes waned.
Right now it has every indication of a software project in trouble.
__________________ Mikael Borjesson, Sweden
The Titan of Titan Games
Keeper of the swedish D&D translations
What would you do? If, as you say, WotC's software development is in trouble, what would you do?
I get it about licensing an existing working VTT, but what then? The CB is in beta, the visualizer is not even in beta, the table wouldn't be integrated with any tiles or the CB, what then?
I'm not convinced they are in that much trouble anymore, or as bad as you say, the sign of heroics and programmers falling on their own sword, now, would be a big key piece of evidence tho...
However, I'm interested, as I hope WotC is, if they are in more trouble.
And here's a VT Feature Comparison Chart that compares a handful of the more popular VTs. Note, however, that some of the information on that chart is a bit out of date.
Thanks for the link to the list; that's very helpful. The second link doesn't work for me. So far, it looks like iTabletop is the only program that offers voice chat, which is a must for me. Is there another program that offers voice?
Thanks for the link to the list; that's very helpful. The second link doesn't work for me. So far, it looks like iTabletop is the only program that offers voice chat, which is a must for me. Is there another program that offers voice?
There's no reason you can't use another program for the VOIP.
__________________ All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re not unreasonable; I mean, no one’s gonna eat your eyes
All we want to do is eat your brains
We’re at an impasse here; maybe we should compromise:
If you open up the doors
We’ll all come inside and eat your brains
The second link was working when I posted it. However, that entire site seems to be down right now. Hopefully it will be back up within a few days.
And malraux is correct in that any virtual tabletop program can be used with a VOIP program running in the background. I prefer to use Ventrilo, for its push-to-talk feature which cuts down on background noise and its ability to send a private voice message to an individual without addressing the whole group. But Skype is more user-friendly to set up.
__________________ Battlegrounds: RPG Edition is new virtual tabletop software that allows you to play any RPG online or offline. It's cross-platform and very easy to use.
Linear Mode
And yet another word from our sponsors
