Forked Thread: SWSE vs 4e

[Ktulu]

I began my current 4e game using SWsaga (utilizing much from the gneech). However, after playing both, I like them like I like my peanutbutter and pickles; separate. Saga works wonders for good scifi (and even modern games), but I think 4e did a better job in the fantasy department.

Overall, I wasn't disappointed with 4e, no more than I was with Saga. Both are great games that will see a lot of use from me for years to come.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

Saga works wonders for good scifi (and even modern games), but I think 4e did a better job in the fantasy department.

Out of interest, what leads you to this conclusion?

Cheers

[Ktulu]

For one, the condition track feels nice when I'm shooting at someone, but felt very out of place when we used it with the fantasy game I played. The players seemed to be constantly beaten down.

The AC system wasn't my preference for a fantasy game (we had to work around quite hard to get heavier armors to feel right)

The force worked "ok" for magic, but it was quite over-powered if you just took skill focus UTF. This, with the limited amount of force powers worked ok with the very low magic world I was using, but wouldn't have been as nice if a wizard had been in the party.

The movement system is made for run'n'gun, rather than sword fighting, so ranged characters are far more effective seeing how they can freely move 1/2 speed away from an enemy and continue to attack them. This limited the usefulness of any multi-attack melee strikes.


As such, I find the game works wonderfully when using it to mimic a Firefly-esque game, or even a d20 modern game with little or no magic.

Combat-wise, though, I feel 4e was an improvement for more melee-focused fantasy games. YMMV

[MarkB]

I do very much like 4e as its own system, but when viewing it in comparison with SWSE, I was disappointed at some of the differences in direction.

Particularly, I feel that SWSE is as close to a viable classless d20 product as any official WotC publication has come. It would take only minor tweaking to create a system in which characters are defined entirely in terms of talents, feats and skills.

It was initially a great shock to find that 4e had taken a diametrically opposite direction, with classes and their associated roles being rigidly defined as a fundamental aspect of game balance, and multiclassing options strictly curtailed.

In playing 4e, I've come to accept that that approach is also viable, and find it enjoyable in its own way - but I do miss the flexible system building upon SWSE's potential which I'd imagined 4e as during its development.

[Ktulu]

Originally Posted by MarkB

I do very much like 4e as its own system, but when viewing it in comparison with SWSE, I was disappointed at some of the differences in direction.

Particularly, I feel that SWSE is as close to a viable classless d20 product as any official WotC publication has come. It would take only minor tweaking to create a system in which characters are defined entirely in terms of talents, feats and skills.

It was initially a great shock to find that 4e had taken a diametrically opposite direction, with classes and their associated roles being rigidly defined as a fundamental aspect of game balance, and multiclassing options strictly curtailed.

In playing 4e, I've come to accept that that approach is also viable, and find it enjoyable in its own way - but I do miss the flexible system building upon SWSE's potential which I'd imagined 4e as during its development.

I do have to agree with this. I was very surprised at the different class systems of the two games and was, at first, disappointed. However, I do think 4e did a good job in taking a different approach. I like both systems for what they do. (though, seriously, Minions were NEEDED in Saga)

[Hobo]

Huh. That's funny; I've long thought about using Star Wars as a fantasy system pretty much as is. I'd rename Jedi, have their lightsabers work more like a Soulknife's mindblade or something, and maybe tweak a few skills that wouldn't be applicable, and call it good to go.

I think the game would feel more like Flash Gordon on Mongo, or John Carter of Mars in some ways than it would like D&D, but I'm perfectly OK with that.

Of course, that's about as far on the development of that idea as I ever got, but it's still kicking around in the back of my head.

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I haven't played SAGA, so my opinion is not too useful here, but there are certain elements I don't like:

- There is still different BAB progressions.
+15 vs +20 is not as bad as +10 vs +20, but still, I don't think it is a good design.
I prefer the 1/2 level approach of 4E. Maybe they should have used proficiency bonuses or skills to distinguish character attacks.

- Use the Force Skill vs Defenses.
It just seems broken. (I think this can also be a problem in 4E, but there aren't many "standard" ways to use a skill vs defense, it's mostly an aspect in the stunt system.)

- Talents and Force Powers.
I know that a lot of people like Talents. Some of them I do like, but they seem to break way to easy (like stacking all those Condition Track "movers" talents). And then we have something like force powers. They work differently, and I don't feel like they can be balanced well enough against each other.
Maybe talents can stay. But every characters needs something like "maneuvers" (powers in 4E parlance) class abilities (talents?), feats and skills. The core mechanical aspects should not be unique to each class.

[Drkfathr1]

Add me to the list of those surprised/disappointed that 4E was so different from Saga. I really like Saga and though that was the direction they'd go in, especially with the Talent trees. I find that concept to be far superior to the current power structure of 4E's classes.

[Felon]

Originally Posted by resistor

My question is: do other non-4e-fans feel the same way? Would a D&D Saga Edition be a better 4e for you?

4e isn't awful or without redeeming qualities, but personally I think comparing SWSE to 4e is a pearls-to-swine comparison.

SWSE is an elegant refinement of 3.5e.

4e is a gross over-simplification of some 3.5e elements, trying to borrow as much from DDM design as possible.

SWSE is a rapier. 4e is a club.

[an_idol_mind]

Star Wars Saga Edition had some design points that I didn't particularly like, but it also had some worthy additions that became house rules in my game. I can't say for sure that I would have bought a D&D Saga Edition, but I would have been more likely to give it a go than what 4th edition eventually came out as. A D&D Saga Edition would definitely have been easier for me to mold into the type of game I want to play.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully

I haven't played SAGA, so my opinion is not too useful here, but there are certain elements I don't like:

- There is still different BAB progressions.
+15 vs +20 is not as bad as +10 vs +20, but still, I don't think it is a good design.
I prefer the 1/2 level approach of 4E. Maybe they should have used proficiency bonuses or skills to distinguish character attacks.

It works pretty well, I think, for SWSE, as long as you use fractional BAB rules. Multiclassing is strongly encouraged, and if you don't use fractional BABs, people who actually do multiclass end up getting screwed.

- Use the Force Skill vs Defenses.
It just seems broken. (I think this can also be a problem in 4E, but there aren't many "standard" ways to use a skill vs defense, it's mostly an aspect in the stunt system.)

Very broken, actually. It's the chief problem with the system, IMHO. I'd far rather see Force Powers get their own Attack Bonus, much like 4e did for powers. I think the different kinds of attack rolls for 4e's powers were an outgrowth of this, actually.

Before mid-levels or so, I'd say Jedi would be foolish to use their lighsabers for anything other than deflection.

- Talents and Force Powers.
I know that a lot of people like Talents. Some of them I do like, but they seem to break way to easy (like stacking all those Condition Track "movers" talents). And then we have something like force powers. They work differently, and I don't feel like they can be balanced well enough against each other.
Maybe talents can stay. But every characters needs something like "maneuvers" (powers in 4E parlance) class abilities (talents?), feats and skills. The core mechanical aspects should not be unique to each class.

The only problem I have with talents is that, much like 3e feats, characters never get enough of them. (Also, some are pretty lame and/or useless, but that comes with the territory.) And the crazy condition track stacking is fairly easy to powergame, yes.

My other main issues are...

(1) While combining AC and Reflex defense works for Star Wars with its blasters and lightsabers, I don't think it's good for D&D. Also, by allowing armor to affect Reflex defense directly, there will likely be a vast gulf between Reflex and Every Other Defense.

(2) While later supplements have provided some (clunky) patches in the forms of feats or talents, melee characters (including the supposed-to-be-iconic lightsaber-wielding Jedi) get screwed. This fits D&D's iconography even worse than it fits Star Wars's. There are two big reasons they get screwed... firstly, ranged characters can get out of their way much more easily than in 3e, withdrawing half their move with a single action. Secondly, because multiple attacks require a full-round action, it's nearly impossible to use multiple attacks with a melee weapon. If your enemy can dance away at a whim while still attacking you, and you can't full-attack if you chase them, it's a problem.


SWSE is an excellent streamlining and re-interpretation of 3e's rules. I ran it for the better part of a year, and will certainly play it again. It's a great system, but it has definite flaws, and I think it gets a tad more praise than it deserves. I also don't think it's a great fit for D&D-style fantasy without some major adjustments.

-O

[Matthew L. Martin]

Originally Posted by Felon

SWSE is a rapier. 4e is a club.

Perhaps it would be better to say that SWSE is an elegant system, for a more civilized game?

[Majoru Oakheart]

Count me as the opposite. I run SWSE, and I enjoy it. As I enjoyed 3.5 and many other games. However, it has more problems than 4e does. I haven't played it at all, only ran it, but from my side of the screen my issues are as follows:

-Balance issues like crazy. The same BAB issues as 3.5e, the same multiclassing issues(only slightly patched), Use the Force checks vs defense problems, mostly weak talents with only a couple of good options, too much differences in hitpoints without a good correlation between hitpoints and CL, etc.

-The condition track. It seemed like a good idea, but I spend so much time tracking it that I am really beginning to hate it. Instead of just keeping track of hitpoints for all enemies, I have to keep track of how far each of them are on the condition track. I have to remember to apply the minuses to hit and defenses on each of them. Normally when I run a bunch of enemies, I quickly remember their AC(or reflex defense) and I no longer have to consult the stats. I just remember: They have 16 AC. When someone says "I hit AC 15", I just immediately say "Missed". With the condition track, it requires me to continually check each and every time what their defense is. At the same time it doesn't add anything. 95% of the time the enemies are dying while only down 1 step(or 0 steps) on the condition track. The only time they drop below that is when the noble uses her power to lower them 2 steps on the condition track. And the only reason she does that is because she's completely unable to hit anything with a blaster or melee weapon due to the imbalances in the game.

Some of the problems are kind of hidden by the setting. Everyone expects Jedi to be really powerful, so when they outshine everyone else, no one cares. No one expects the Noble to be useful in combat, so when they hide behind a crate for the whole combat it isn't a big deal. The players rarely go up or down the condition track much so they don't care. But I still notice the issues.

Mark me down as someone who would love to see a new Star Wars RPG more like 4e.

[Imaro]

Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart

Count me as the opposite. I run SWSE, and I enjoy it. As I enjoyed 3.5 and many other games. However, it has more problems than 4e does. I haven't played it at all, only ran it, but from my side of the screen my issues are as follows:

-Balance issues like crazy. The same BAB issues as 3.5e, the same multiclassing issues(only slightly patched), Use the Force checks vs defense problems, mostly weak talents with only a couple of good options, too much differences in hitpoints without a good correlation between hitpoints and CL, etc.

Easily solved by the fractional BAB... Agree about UTF (for D&D) but I honestly think this would have to be the biggest change for a 4e based of SAGA Force=/=D&D magic, plain and simple. It does feel like Star Wars however since very rarely does a jedi fail when attempting to use the force against someone...I can only think of rare exceptions in the movies like Jabba. The force powers are a little unbalanced but an easy fix, if you want them less powerful, is don't allow PC's to take skill focus in UTF till they hit 6th level. Mostly weak talents with only a couple of good options??? Not seeing it especially as more are produced in each expansion book, if anything I would say there are more that my players want than they can get. Uhm, hitpoints and CL haven't really noticed this problem, not even sure I'm understanding what your problem is.

Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart

-The condition track. It seemed like a good idea, but I spend so much time tracking it that I am really beginning to hate it. Instead of just keeping track of hitpoints for all enemies, I have to keep track of how far each of them are on the condition track. I have to remember to apply the minuses to hit and defenses on each of them. Normally when I run a bunch of enemies, I quickly remember their AC(or reflex defense) and I no longer have to consult the stats. I just remember: They have 16 AC. When someone says "I hit AC 15", I just immediately say "Missed". With the condition track, it requires me to continually check each and every time what their defense is. At the same time it doesn't add anything. 95% of the time the enemies are dying while only down 1 step(or 0 steps) on the condition track. The only time they drop below that is when the noble uses her power to lower them 2 steps on the condition track. And the only reason she does that is because she's completely unable to hit anything with a blaster or melee weapon due to the imbalances in the game.

Seriously, with all the marking, recharging, saves, etc. going on in a single round of D&D 4e... the condition track in SWSE is too much to keep track of...Uhm, ok

Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart

Some of the problems are kind of hidden by the setting. Everyone expects Jedi to be really powerful, so when they outshine everyone else, no one cares. No one expects the Noble to be useful in combat, so when they hide behind a crate for the whole combat it isn't a big deal. The players rarely go up or down the condition track much so they don't care. But I still notice the issues.

Actually I haven't found jedi are overpowering. A well built Soldier who fights smart is about on par with a jedi in combat. The force powers are a little unbalanced but like I said upthread, an easy fix is don't allow PC's to take skill focus in UTF till they hit 6th level.

Originally Posted by Majoru Oakheart

Mark me down as someone who would love to see a new Star Wars RPG more like 4e.

Yuck...IMHO, that's like trying to make steak from ground beef.

[Plane Sailing]

Originally Posted by Ktulu

For one, the condition track feels nice when I'm shooting at someone, but felt very out of place when we used it with the fantasy game I played. The players seemed to be constantly beaten down.

The AC system wasn't my preference for a fantasy game (we had to work around quite hard to get heavier armors to feel right)

The force worked "ok" for magic, but it was quite over-powered if you just took skill focus UTF. This, with the limited amount of force powers worked ok with the very low magic world I was using, but wouldn't have been as nice if a wizard had been in the party.

The movement system is made for run'n'gun, rather than sword fighting, so ranged characters are far more effective seeing how they can freely move 1/2 speed away from an enemy and continue to attack them. This limited the usefulness of any multi-attack melee strikes.


As such, I find the game works wonderfully when using it to mimic a Firefly-esque game, or even a d20 modern game with little or no magic.

Combat-wise, though, I feel 4e was an improvement for more melee-focused fantasy games. YMMV

Thanks for the answers.

I agree that skill focus UTF is a definite problem, and I've got fixes in mind for that. I'll also almost certainly switch to the +1/2 level for BAB rather than the class based BAB.

I'd not noticed the 'heavier armours' problem because I tend to do more swashbuckling style games rather than heavy armour games - I'd probably have a go at a DR style armour and see how that worked though.

Cheers

[pawsplay]

I own and play SWSE, but there are certainly things about it I don't like. Sometimes there are "stupid levels," like even levels of Scoundrel with no scaling abilities, because the only thing that differentiates classes after level 1 is hit die and BAB. Save bonuses and skills are set at level 1. For instance, the correct way to design a Force-using Scout is always Scout 1/Soldier X with Force Talents, because if you don't want the Scout talents, there is no point to Scout levels (bonus feats are mostly interchangeable). I'm also not happy with multiclassing... better than 4e, but you still have a problem in that you can't blend skill lists until 3rd level.

Sometimes, I wish I had kept my old d20 Star Wars books and just house-ruled hit points back in.

[Ktulu]

Originally Posted by Plane Sailing

Thanks for the answers.

I agree that skill focus UTF is a definite problem, and I've got fixes in mind for that. I'll also almost certainly switch to the +1/2 level for BAB rather than the class based BAB.

I'd not noticed the 'heavier armours' problem because I tend to do more swashbuckling style games rather than heavy armour games - I'd probably have a go at a DR style armour and see how that worked though.

Cheers

I hadn't noticed the heavier armor issue, either, until a player really wanted one.

When I go back to SWSE (after I finish my current D&D camp), I'll do the 1/2 BAB, add in minions, and use the 4e crit/death system. Aside from that, I think it works as is for space/scifi (going to do a Firefly style game, fo sho)

[Paul_Klein]

Originally Posted by Imaro

The force powers are a little unbalanced but an easy fix, if you want them less powerful, is don't allow PC's to take skill focus in UTF till they hit 6th level.

Do you think this should only be done for UtF, or should Skill Focus have a 6th level prereq across the board? Because even though Force Powers are attacks and skills are not, a character can still get disgustingly high skills at low levels.

But I do like the prereq idea for at least Skill Focus (use the force) because it seems by mid levels, those super high skill bonuses start to even out and balance.

[Remathilis]

Originally Posted by Paul_Klein

Do you think this should only be done for UtF, or should Skill Focus have a 6th level prereq across the board? Because even though Force Powers are attacks and skills are not, a character can still get disgustingly high skills at low levels.

But I do like the prereq idea for at least Skill Focus (use the force) because it seems by mid levels, those super high skill bonuses start to even out and balance.

All Skill Focus; since Deception and Persuasion both also target Will Defense, making those to skills very broken as well.

[Obryn]

Originally Posted by Imaro

Easily solved by the fractional BAB... Agree about UTF (for D&D) but I honestly think this would have to be the biggest change for a 4e based of SAGA Force=/=D&D magic, plain and simple. It does feel like Star Wars however since very rarely does a jedi fail when attempting to use the force against someone...I can only think of rare exceptions in the movies like Jabba. The force powers are a little unbalanced but an easy fix, if you want them less powerful, is don't allow PC's to take skill focus in UTF till they hit 6th level.

As far as the Force is concerned, I'm a lot more disappointed in how low-level Force users mainly rely on Powers (since melee combat is rough, powers are more reliable, and powers do more damage); while high-level Force users rely more on their lightsabers. Basically, it's exactly the opposite of what I'd like to see. I want low-level Jedi to be more reliant on lightsabers, by and large.

I'm still pondering making a separate Force Use "BAB" that always goes up 1/level, regardless of class, and uses Charisma as its ability score. Then, dropping the DCs of all Force effects by 5. I think the math will work out, but it won't overwhelm the opposition quite so readily.

Seriously, with all the marking, recharging, saves, etc. going on in a single round of D&D 4e... the condition track in SWSE is too much to keep track of...Uhm, ok

It's the breadth and frequency, I think. The condition track kind of affects everything - attacks, checks, and defenses - and it can affect many different characters differently... I think it's just about as tough to keep track of, for me and my groups.

Yuck...IMHO, that's like trying to make steak from ground beef.

Now, that's just rude.

-O