General RPG DiscussionDiscussion of all RPGs and non-system-specific topics. DM/GM/player issues, settings, etc. Rules discussion belongs in one the forums below.
I doubt there's a 3E gamer that doesn't feel there are shortcomings with 3E. The majority of us (at least I did) were greatly anticipating 4E, especially because we thought that it might "fix" the problems with 3E. Instead, it created an entirely new system with it's own new problems.
I was one of those gamers who was initially really excited about 4e, because I recognized some failings in 3e. I looked at Star Wars Saga Edition (which was mentioned as being a prototype for 4e in the early days after the announcement), and was really excited: it managed to make a streamlined, easier-to-play version of the 3e rules without sacrificing the basic system. I was pumped.
Then 4e came out, and was nothing at all like 3e or SWSE. And I was really disappointed.
My question is: do other non-4e-fans feel the same way? Would a D&D Saga Edition be a better 4e for you?
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Yep, this is definitely me. I love the SWSE talent trees (allowing the same class to be different in it's focus inside and outside of combat), the fact that the classes aren't defined as combat roles, the streamlined nature of SWSE's game play... numerous customization options out of the single corebook, encouragement of multi-classing, etc. Now don't get me wrong SAGA isn't perfect, but I think if the 4e designers had taken SWSE and devoted their time and effort into smoothing out it's kinks... I believe we would have had a much better 4e.
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I feel the same way. When I picked up KotS I was excited. I just figured the powers were a stripped down version of what was to come. Along with the set HP per level and a few other things. Once I got my 4e books in the mail and began to dig in, I was thoroughly let down. There was pretty much nothing I could see other than the same basic six stats and rolling a d20 that was similar to SWSE.
That being said, I haven't played 4e yet so I am not going to bash it. But there are just too many things that keep me from putting my foot down on that path to trying it right now. I think that if I hadn't heard so much about it being a sort of Frankenstein of 3.x and SWSE I wouldn't have been so let down. I still intend to give 4e a whirl at some point though.
I think they did take non-heroics and take them a step further up the evolutionary ladder when minions were created though. Very cool idea that was probably house-ruled in many campaigns to begin with, but honestly not something I ever thought about using. I fully intend to use them in other games though.
I was quite excited when I saw SWSE. It wasn't perfect, but it was (IMO), a step in the right direction for d20 in general. I had great hopes that 4E would be a lot like SWSE, only better. Was I ever disappointed...
I think the biggest sticker in the Saga -> 4e evolution was magic. While SWSE has the Force, its quite a different beast than traditional D&D magic. While I'm sure a combination of Force Talent/Force Powers could emulate D&D magic, I think it would have been the hardest part to balance. And since two out of four classes are balanced on magic, that's half the game.
I think with some corrections to the scaling issues (see UtF vs. Defenses, low, med, high level discrepancies) it would have been nearly perfect. As is, its good for Star Wars and a tighter, more elegant system than 3e (or Revised SW) and not as gamist as 4e.
I like SWSE a lot. D&DSE would be much better for me than 4e. I am kind of hoping Pathfinder might be a D&DSE, but....maybe not...
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I think the biggest sticker in the Saga -> 4e evolution was magic. While SWSE has the Force, its quite a different beast than traditional D&D magic. While I'm sure a combination of Force Talent/Force Powers could emulate D&D magic, I think it would have been the hardest part to balance. And since two out of four classes are balanced on magic, that's half the game.
I think with some corrections to the scaling issues (see UtF vs. Defenses, low, med, high level discrepancies) it would have been nearly perfect. As is, its good for Star Wars and a tighter, more elegant system than 3e (or Revised SW) and not as gamist as 4e.
I'm with ya. Changing the magic system into something more like the Force system in SE would have been okay with me, thuogh. Vancian magic with its "slots" was never something I was a huge fan of.
My question is: do other non-4e-fans feel the same way? Would a D&D Saga Edition be a better 4e for you?
Yes and no. I like the Star Wars condition track and several other things over 4e, However, I still dislike the over conslidation of skills, the lack of skill points to purchase ranks, and per encounter force abilities. Those three things are why I will not play or run Star Wars Saga Edition.
__________________ "The designers of the newest edition built so much reliance on rules right into the game, to make it easier to play. As one of those designers, I occasionally think to myself, 'What have we wrought?' " -Monte Cook
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Yes and no. I like the Star Wars condition track and several other things over 4e, However, I still dislike the over conslidation of skills, the lack of skill points to purchase ranks, and per encounter force abilities. Those three things are why I will not play or run Star Wars Saga Edition.
I like those things for Star Wars, not necessarily for D&D. In Star Wars, I like that anyone can attempt to fly a ship. They may not be good at it, but anyone can try. It fits the movies very well. Princess Leia can fly a ship, Obi Wan can fly a ship...etc. I also liked the per encounter force abilities.
However, for D&D, I would have preferred skill points to divvy up between various skills. Per encounter abilities would have been fine for me for D&D, but I don't like how 4e did them. In 4e, since everything requires a to-hit roll, it's quite often that I'll see one of my Encounter Powers never be effective for games on end.
As far as SWSE vs. 4E goes, I'll repeat what others have said. SWSE wins for me. Primarily because of what other's have talked about. Within each class, the Talent trees allow for different kinds of specialization, and multi-classing still allows you to make whatever character concept you can imagine out of the gate. For example, right now I'm playing a "Failed Jedi" archetype from the old WEG system.
Another big win for me is that in SWSE, many of the abilities are not so gamist, and have a lot of application outside of combat.
Last edited by Toben the Many; 4th January 2009 at 11:29 PM..
I wonder if there would be a market for a "Dungeon Saga" fantasy roleplaying game that was compatible with both 3.5 & Pathfinder? The problem I notice here is that all of you LIKE Saga Edition, but were expecting "more changes" or "polish" for 4E and here we find ourselves at the impossible divider - what to change and add, what to keep or remove?
I'd love to pioneer a Dungeon Saga RPG, but with Pathfinder eating up the 3.5 market and 4E blazing forth, how large of a following would such a game garner?
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I wonder if there would be a market for a "Dungeon Saga" fantasy roleplaying game that was compatible with both 3.5 & Pathfinder? The problem I notice here is that all of you LIKE Saga Edition, but were expecting "more changes" or "polish" for 4E and here we find ourselves at the impossible divider - what to change and add, what to keep or remove?
I can't speak for others, but I know that I don't expect so much more in terms of "more changes" or "polish", but I do think that the system needs some adaptation to be a D&D replacement rather than a Star Wars d20 Revised replacement. There's certainly a non-trivial amount of work to be done on that.
My list of things that I would think would need adaptation:
- Split AC back out from Reflex defense. Worked OK in a game where armor was insignificant, but I think it wouldn't work so well in a D&D-like game.
- Figure out how to make D&D-ish spellcasting work talent trees. I once saw a "port" of D&D onto the d20 Modern system which had each spell level as a talent in long, narrow talent tree. I'm not sure if that's the best approach, but it's one way.
- Take a hard look at the skill list and how much/little it should be consolidated, and how the skills should work. I like the SAGA way in general, but it might need tweaking to be appropriate for D&D-like games.
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I'd love to pioneer a Dungeon Saga RPG, but with Pathfinder eating up the 3.5 market and 4E blazing forth, how large of a following would such a game garner?
For what it's worth, this was attempted before, with a lot of discussion on these forums. Look up "Fantasy Concepts". I haven't looked at the finished product, so I can't comment on how it came out.
__________________ 'Imaginary' universes are so much more beautiful than this stupidly constructed 'real' one.
I like SWSE a lot. D&DSE would be much better for me than 4e. I am kind of hoping Pathfinder might be a D&DSE, but....maybe not...
As much hope as I have for Pathfinder, I suspect it with be 3.5++ than anything resembling a D&D/SWSE hybrid.
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Originally Posted by Kamikaze Midget
I'm with ya. Changing the magic system into something more like the Force system in SE would have been okay with me, thuogh. Vancian magic with its "slots" was never something I was a huge fan of.
Instead, I guess 4e made everybody vancian.
The biggest problem with a "Force" style magic system is the escalation of power. Scorching Burst which is less powerful than Fireball which is way less powerful than Meteor Swarm. The Force is all equal in power. Creating a sense of escalation would be the hardest method for creating the magic system.
My question is: do other non-4e-fans feel the same way? Would a D&D Saga Edition be a better 4e for you?
Personally I think it could have been a better, more configurable and more scalable system, especially with some effort overcoming the remaining kinks in SWSE. I've been running 4e for over 6 months now, and I'm giving strong consideration to the possibility of creating some SWSE based rules and moving to that kind of rules for future FRPGing.
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I like SWSE but it has problems of its own... the force system being the big blatant one. The whole talent setup is really awful (as it was in d20 Modern) - they're a nice customization idea but they basically make planning out your build a requirement, as you have to jump through strange combos of feats and talents from different classes in order to qualify for some of them. (plus as with feats they tend to not scale well which creates the usual system mastery pitfalls)
Sure. I keep looking at Star Wars Saga Edition and thinking of a lot of great ways in which I could use its rules to improve my own 3.5 games. If 4E was Saga ideas applied to basic D&D, I would be happy enough to adopt it as my fantasy RPG of choice and never look back.
I love SWSE for Star Wars games. It has some quirks that need ironed out - I think Talents accumulate too slowly, and the Force is completely overpowering at low levels - but overall it's a solid game that I look forward to playing some more.
With that said, I'm also happy with how 4e did fantasy. I can see the seeds of 4e development in SWSE, but they're really different games.
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