1E/2E/OD&D Tucker's Kobolds -- really that tough a challenge?

[Celebrim]

Shark, we usually agree on many things, but here I must disagree.

Originally Posted by SHARK

First off, the players do not know, and generally will never know *exactly* how the Kobold tribe gains the wealth to store/stockpile/utilize all the oil, traps, poisons, and so on. Most don't, and are unlikely to find out the exact details.

But this is irrelevant. Even if the PC's are unlikely to ever know, the DM still needs some notion about the source of any resources. The reason is very simple. Abstract resources tend to be unlimited and invincible. Fighting something that has abstract resources is like fighting a ghost that can materialize and become ethereal at will. Concretely imagined supplies tend to be limited, interdictable, capturable and even subvertable. 'Tucker's Kobolds' tend to not only never suffer in logistical problems - never suffer from the friction of war - but by virtue of having an abstract supply line are also immune to indirect assaults.

Next, while the resources and tactics used may in fact annoy many of you, I think there's some meta-gaming thought going on here.

I'm fairly sure that I indicated that it was not the tactics or the resources that annoyed me. Any of the tactics or any of the resources are in isolation fine. What annoys me about 'Tucker's Kobold's' is the unlimited nature of these resources. In Tucker's Kobold's type encounters, all of these tactics and resources are applied together and there is a tendency for the Kobold's to be perpared to defeat any tactic.

Why is it so pervasive to believe that every group of monsters are somehow encountering *you, your PC group* for the very first time? The player group is quite likely not the first adventuring group the monsters have encountered, and certainly in many campaigns, groups of adventurers making raids into various cavern systems, etc in the local area may be in fact a routine aspect of life, and it could be a fairly common reality for many years up to the present.

Given the number of kills a player character can expect to rack up, if a group of humanoids is encountering hostile adventuring groups on a regular basis the logical assumption is that the humanoids are all long since dead.

Therefore, many such groups and tribes of humanoid monsters would develop tactics over time and make it a priority to gain and gather resources in which to defeat such roving bands of marauding adventurers. That's part of having an intelligent, interactive world, yes?--rather than a static, simplistic world of dumb creatures that--despite some common level of intellectual ability, and capacity for warfare and to learn from their experiences--never seem to respond to maruading bands of adventurers?

Sure, they'll do their best to prepare for adventurers. I'm fully willing to believe that monsterous humanoid's ability to plan goes far beyond even what you suggest here. For example, I assume that the various tribes are engaged in manufacturing, and that they regularly trade surplus goods to neighboring tribes for mutual economic advantage. I further assume that the humanoid tribe tends to be part of a vast rumor network, where invovative ideas are spread by wandering humanoid bards, shamans, itenerent craftsman, mercenaries, and merchants. So I wouldn't even have to assume that a particular tribe had seen a fireball before they'd be able to take some steps to defend against one.

But that's not the problem I have. The problem I have is PC resources are not infinite. Even if the PC's were asked to harden an area against attack, there would be some precautions that they'd simply find too expensive, too laborous, and too troublesome to undertake - and I say that with full respect for player ingenuity and devotion to detail.

I mean, let's look at the specifics for a second. In the original 'Tucker's Kobolds' articles it refers to kobold archers, moving, then firing, then finishing their move. In 1st ed., that's a non-standard rule that allows the kobolds to snipe at the players without recieving return fire. Now, why haven't the PC's archers been allowed to pull this trick since the beginning of the campaign? Surely the high level PC's are more capable archers than the kobolds, and capable of employing whatever tricks relatively unskilled kobolds can? And if they have been able to since the beginning, why weren't they informed that they could? And if they can, why aren't they able to pull the same trick on the kobolds and hense neutralizing the tactic or turning the tables on the kobolds?

Thus, it is certainly refreshing to have them meet up with a group or tribe of monsters that are quite different from what they have smugly been accustomed to dealing with for most of their adventuring careers.

Why not spread the resources around? Instead of having a bunch of dumb demihumans waiting to be killed, and a few tribes of smart humanoids with virtually unlimited resources, why not assume all humanoids are reasonably clever and resourceful? Why not make the reutine reasonably clever, reasonably bright, and reasonably resourceful and save the 'full imagination and cunning of the DM' for monsters that are supposed to be wealthy super-geniouses?

In point of fact, if I'm encountering 'Tucker's Kobolds' in 1e with something like a 12th level mage on hand, I'm going to deal with it something like this:

"I cast Invisible Stalker."
"Invisible Stalker, I command you to kill all the Kobold's on the first level of the dungeon."

I wouldn't expect a tribe of kobolds to last more than a day against a highly intelligent vaporous flying permenently invisible assassin that is utterly lethal to a kobold with every attack. But of course, with true Tucker Kobolds serving the role of DM's pets, this attack would be undoubtably be dodged immediately. The Kobold's would immediately recognize the presence of the invisible stalker, and they'd automatically know the exact instructions the stalker was given, and they'd immediately be able to organize a flight of the entire tribe to some special bolt hole technically on another level of the dungeon, at which point the Invisible Stalker would immediately consider its instructions fulfilled and the kobold's would then immediately resume all their battle stations with a speed comparable to them all possessing unlimited teleportation.

It's that sort of thing that annoys me.

[WayneLigon]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

I mean, let's look at the specifics for a second. In the original 'Tucker's Kobolds' articles it refers to kobold archers, moving, then firing, then finishing their move. In 1st ed., that's a non-standard rule that allows the kobolds to snipe at the players without recieving return fire.

This is the sort of thing that annoyed a lot of people about D&D up until 3E: monsters in 1E very frequently have mundane-origin (meaning, it's not a magical ability or supernatural effect, bbut something that anyone could reasonably expect to do given some dedication and training) special abilities that PCs can never learn. Ever. I think all elves except PC elves can do the split-move-and-fire thing as well.

And customizing monsters is just a thing that is expected from DMs. I regularly give ghouls the ability to effectively spider-climb at will, because the image of skittering emaciated critters on the walls and ceilings is a horrifying one. It's not in the core rules, but it's just something I do.

[Mark]

Some form of this old chestnut can be fun to spring on a group of relatively new players but for experienced players this concept tends to chafe and be tired.

[Raven Crowking]

Originally Posted by WayneLigon

This is the sort of thing that annoyed a lot of people about D&D up until 3E: monsters in 1E very frequently have mundane-origin (meaning, it's not a magical ability or supernatural effect, bbut something that anyone could reasonably expect to do given some dedication and training) special abilities that PCs can never learn. Ever. I think all elves except PC elves can do the split-move-and-fire thing as well.

Prior to 3e, why would you ever prevent any character from shooting an arrow during his or her move? If a player said, in bd&d, 1e, or 2e "I cross the room, firing an arrow at midpoint" why would you not let them?


RC

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by Raven Crowking

Prior to 3e, why would you ever prevent any character from shooting an arrow during his or her move? If a player said, in bd&d, 1e, or 2e "I cross the room, firing an arrow at midpoint" why would you not let them?


RC

I think it would have been very much up to the DM.

Older editions frequently had a very clearly defined order of operations. For example, in BD&D it clearly defined that all movement would take place, then all missile fire, then all spells, and finally all melee. There would be absolutely no reason for a player to expect that he could move again following the missile phase. And the DM who wished to allow such things would have to be very careful indeed to not let the character argue that he ought to be able to move after missile fire, but before melee combat because bD&D had no conception of 'attacks of opportunity' or similar rules designed to make linear turns more resemble real time. He'd also almost certainly feel the need to event things like 'readied actions' to counter the tactic.

Thus the kobolds don't merely have an extra ability, they are breaking the rules in a very specific way, and in a way that would have been very unusual in an earlier edition game and which would have made alot of DM's uncomfortable simply because it created such a potentially complex headache. You more or less would have been throwing the whole combat system out of the window and winging it. If the kobolds are doing so in the context of a game where the PC's are comfortable with the DM 'saying yes' to anything remotely reasonable, then fine - it would probably come as no surprise that kobolds can split move and fire and PC's may have even already used this tactic on a monster themselves. If it comes up in the context of a DM who frequently handicaps players with the letter of the law, the first time I see split move fire kobolds, I don't know how anyone else feels but I'm going to lose a great deal of interest in the game.

[Raven Crowking]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

I think it would have been very much up to the DM.

I don't know about you, but I never had any difficulty as DM or player by allowing character -- PC or kobold -- to do what we generally acepted an average person could do.

RC

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by Raven Crowking

I don't know about you, but I never had any difficulty as DM or player by allowing character -- PC or kobold -- to do what we generally acepted an average person could do.

I generally don't have a problem with it either. In general, if it seems to me that you ought to be able to do it, then I come up with a way for you to do it regardless of what the rules say.

That being said, I'm not entirely sure that as a teenage DM 20 odd years ago I would have been perfectly comfortable with allowing a player to move-fire-move. The question then would be not whether an average person wielding say a crossbow would be able to do it, because clearly they could, but whether an average person wielding a crossbow would be able to do it before an opponent would have a chance at replying. I would quite probably have argued that the player was attempting to take advantage of the limitations of the rules to argue for being able to do something that he in fact couldn't do. If we break down what is actually going on, the character wants to move - thereby revealing himself - fire, and then move back. Main difference between that and three rounds of action is that the enemy doesn't get to fire back. And that's what the player is really demanding - not the ability to move and fire, but the ability to attack without getting attacked in reply. If they thought that they could get fired on, they wouldn't attempt it. Perhaps if the character had surprise, I might allow this, but if the character doesn't have surprise then I wouldn't see why this couldn't be broke into 3 rounds of action. I certainly wouldn't allow it repeatedly without some means of repeatedly achieving surprise.

Of course, my tool set is alot bigger now than then, and my answer would probably be alot different now than then regardless of edition.

However, this is all somewhat irrelevant, as the question isn't how would I have handled, but how was it being handled by the DM's who are fond of doing 'Tucker's Kobolds' sorts of scenarios.

[Edena_of_Neith]

You are talking apples and oranges here, guys.

At *that time*, when Tucker's Kobolds were seen in Dragon Magazine, the gaming culture was much more of an 'anything goes' mentality, and much less of today's 'balanced' mentality.

Look at the article that was printed. That article came from a specific member of a group, upon whose party Tucker's Kobolds the DM had sicced.
That party was either TPKed, or very close to it.

'Anything goes' was THE motto of Tucker's Kobolds.
Things that would be considered unfair, unreasonable, unbalanced, or game-breaking, abusive, were Standard Operating Procedure for these critters.

Even in *that* environment, they only fit *if* the DM was willing to be *extremely* hard on his players, and the players were accustomed (very accustomed) to their DM being extremely hard on them.
Otherwise, it would not have worked, not even back then.

In *today's* environment of balance, balanced encounters, balanced spells, balanced challenges, fight and rest, and so on, Tucker's Kobolds aren't going to fit.
I mean, how many groups today will desire that the DM do everything he *can* to achieve a TPK (short of an outright 'you're dead'), desire the DM do everything he *can* to mess them over, to mess with them, and who can tolerate and deal with the loss of just about everything they possess (magical items included), the loss of hirelings and henchmen, the loss of all acquired treasure, while an army of insane, maniac kobolds runs circles around them?

Tucker's Kobolds were kind of a low level Tomb of Horrors.
They should be treated as such. They are not there to give anyone an even break. They are not easy, fair, or balanced opponents. They are the Kobolds from the Abyss, they want to Party, and you've got an Engraved Invitation You Can't Refuse to the Masquerade Ball.

EDIT: Some of you know I take a lasse faire attitude towards the casting of magical spells. Fortunately, the original Tucker's Kobolds did not have magical spells. In 3E, they *could.* Trust me, if you go there, we're talking about ... well, I think the party might just PREFER the congenial Tomb of Horrors over Tucker's Kobolds, come to think of it. Much safer, and far more reasonable.
But they don't need spells. Even without spells, Tucker's Kobolds have enough firepower, and the ruthless will to use it, to take on a goodly part of the City of Greyhawk.

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith

You are talking apples and oranges here, guys.

I know what I'm talking about. I played 'back in the day'. I'm one of those old school DM's that newer players think is an unforgiving rat bastard DM who creates dungeons of death, but they only think that because they've been peddled soft cozy little dungeons where survival is the expected result for a team of unskilled novices and have never actually met a true rat bastard DM that will chew up 30 or 40 PC's in a single dungeon.

At *that time*, when Tucker's Kobolds were seen in Dragon Magazine, the gaming culture was much more of an 'anything goes' mentality, and much less of today's 'balanced' mentality.

Balance isn't the issue. 'Tomb of Horrors' is a well balanced module, IMO. I've plenty of times pitted low level characters against monsters that they had no chance against, if only to teach my players that sometimes they have to run. I have no problems with the balance issues involved in ballistic flagons of flaming oil, or anything else of the sort. I have no problem with abusing the rules or coming up with nasty situations. I'm the kind of guy that would force you to fight a troll wearing a ring of fire resistance in a driving rainstorm. I'm generally ok conceptually with 'save or die' or even 'no save and die'.

But I draw the line at 'unfair'. I treat NPC's with the same skepticism I treat the PC's. Their plans don't always work out either. They suffer from confusion and failures of morale and supply shortages and the rest. I don't treat NPC's as some sort of favored pet that the PC's aren't allowed to defeat. I don't vest my ego in my ability to counter any plan that the PC's come up with. I don't give NPC's any edges that I wouldn't give to PC's in the same circumstance.

That's the real issue behind 'Tucker's Kobolds'.

I mean, how many groups today will desire that the DM do everything he *can* to achieve a TPK (short of an outright 'you're dead'), desire the DM do everything he *can* to mess them over, to mess with them, and who can tolerate and deal with the loss of just about everything they possess (magical items included), the loss of hirelings and henchmen, the loss of all acquired treasure, while an army of insane, maniac kobolds runs circles around them?

The way I see it, any DM worth his pizza can _always_ produce a TPK if he wants one. The DM can do anything he wants, so of course he can always stack the die in the NPC's favor. Of course I can TPK a 12th level party with just a kobold, if by 'just a kobold' you mean 'a kobold plus a level that activates a massive death trap' or something like that. But its worse than that, because with the 'Tucker's Kobold' syndome, the problem isn't that the characters are being put in a situation that is grossly unfair, but that the players are. The players aren't being presented with a puzzle to solve so much as an oppurtunity for the DM to treat the players as puppets for his own amusement. In order for 'Tucker's Kobolds' to work against a high level party, the DM has to practice not only 'saying no', but treat all of the NPC's actions in the most favorable terms and all of the PCs in the least favorable terms. In order for the kobolds to really have a chance against a decent party, the DM has to set up the situation so that nothing the PC's can do actually has a chance of working.

Tucker's Kobolds were kind of a low level Tomb of Horrors.

That's completely unfair to Tomb of Horrors as a module. As you point out, the challenges in ToH are for the most part far more reasonable.

[Gentlegamer]

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith

At *that time*, when Tucker's Kobolds were seen in Dragon Magazine, the g
Even in *that* environment, they only fit *if* the DM was willing to be *extremely* hard on his players, and the players were accustomed (very accustomed) to their DM being extremely hard on them.
Otherwise, it would not have worked, not even back then.

You're exactly right. This is part of the very social make-up of a role-playing game and why it is both impossible and unnecessary to make universal rules that govern every group of players using the system. The DM makes rulings and so on with the (tacit or explicit) consent of the players. It's all about the common understanding/expectations that the group develops over time.

[Edena_of_Neith]

The group Tucker's Kobolds was sprung on, was apparently very happy with the scenario. They eagerly took on these opponents. When the conflict took on the epic proportions it was to take on, they rose to the challenge.
What I remember about that article is that this, was something they looked back fondly on, were proud of having had the experience, wished to let the whole gaming world know of their epic struggle. (And, they did just that.)

The Young of today are not different. The Young will always be the Young.

But who set down a rule that we, the Older, cannot enjoy such challenges?
Who says we cannot rise to meet them?
Who says we are not up to epic encounters?

It is not I, who says these things.

I say that, in every Older person, a Young person remains, defiant and audacious and ready to come out and meet all of the challenges.
To his aid comes the knowledge, experience, and wisdom of the Older Person.

Edena_of_Neith

[S'mon]

I think most players are happy to face a strong challenge within the rules. Split-fire clearly breaks some iterations of the rules and would annoy me. Nor is it plausible IRL - you can fire a crossbow on the run, but you're not going to hit anything.

[Old_school_overlord]

I just finished a long session for my adventurers - 6 players who are all fairly new to D&D - that was inspired by the Tucker's kobolds article (I'd been planning it for some time).

The group:
9th level Paladin (Gloria)
9th level Rogue/Swordsage (Lmax)
9th level Lizardfolk Swordsage (Salith)
8th level Sorcerer (Dorvet)
8th level Cleric (Gwilin)
8th level Bard (Melody)

They know the Kobolds are in contact with the Dragon Meerthrax who posses a widget they require for plot purposes, and had bargained for information from a nearby cabal of Gauths.

Entering the winding tunnels they passed a small concealed sentry post (which had provided a kobold with a nice view of them as they stood at the tunnel mouth preparing to go in) and walked past some open doors without paying too much attention. 20 ft further down the corridor and portcullis are slamming down behind them and in the middle of their marching order splitting the party, Lomax the Rogue spots the murder holes in the ceiling a fraction of a second before gallons of boiling water are poured down onto them.

Two of them move down the tunnel to secure it, while the rest start to try to lift the portcullis. A pair of kobold archers take pot shots to little effect and are taken down by a barrage of magic missiles and shadow garrotes, meanwhile long spears stab down at their heads, inflicting some irritating grazes and behind them a pair of Kobolds who have dropped down from the a hatch in the ceiling bar the doors shut to prevent them escaping. By this point the portcullis has been lifted and party members quickly duck under, another archer appears down the corridor and is charged by Lomax who falls into the pit trap the kobold was standing behind (). The party hastily move down the corridor and the stragglers are pelted with alchemist fire before they manage to get beyond the reach of the murder holes. Having fished Lomax out the Pit they proceed cautiously down the tunnel, into a large squarish chamber with double doors at the far side.

They nervously start to cross the room, calling out to the unseen Kobolds that they wish to talk to peacefully with their leaders - The Red Rock warren aren't having any of it though, and the 4 archers from each side open fire at them. Noticing that the arrow slits to the left are at floor level (compared to the elevated ones of the right) Melody charges over to attempt to skewer one of them, and instead manages to fall into the spiked pit directly in front of the archer. At this point they realised that neither of the Swordsages had bothered bringing ranged weapons, and an protracted fire fight broke out that was complicated by the other sentries arriving from behind, having slipped out the secret door into the tunnel.

That's a quick summary of the first couple of rooms, it made a great change from "I am lord Doom-Helmet, prepare to die.." and some uber bad guy getting taken down in one round - instead at least a hunded Kobolds have already fallen before them, and after being set on fire for the tenth time, I've never seen such bloodlust from my players!

[Edena_of_Neith]

(muses)

I honestly believe Tucker's Kobolds were meant as primarily humor, and taken that way by the group who sent in the article to Dragon.
Why?

Because poison was so very lethal in OD&D, 1E, and 2E, and if the DM had really wanted Tucker's Kobolds to kill the party, it would have been simple enough:

DM:

A squadron of kobolds with readied hand crossbows with poisoned bolts appears. They have Surprise.
They all fire. 10 incoming poisoned bolts. 5 hit the fighter. Roll five saves versus Poison.

(fighter fails 2 of them, dies.)

(initiative is rolled, group wins)

Group: (attacks the kobolds in hand to hand combat, begins killing them.)

DM: But now, 10 kobolds appear behind you, coming out of the Secret Entrance. They also have surprise, and they fire their posioned bolts from their hand crossbows.
3 bolts hit the wizard. Make three saves versus poison.

(the wizard dies, party wheels to face the Wolf Pack assault)

DM: The kobolds who were originally in front of you, those still alive (after being struck at by the party and many downed by bolts from their own side), strike with poisoned blades at the backs of those who turned, and at the front.
Those from behind draw poisoned blades and charge.
Multiple poisoned hits on most of the party. Make your saves.

(most of the party dies)

...

Real fun ... : (

Tucker's Kobolds were not played in this spirit. They were nasty, evil little critters, amusing, annoying, and downright mean, but hey, they were fun.
It is hard to imagine the above scenario as fun.

About the only way the above scenario could be fun is if ... the party was forewarned and threw a magical immunity to poison up first, or defensive spells that repelled bolts (Protection from Normal Arrows, 2nd level, in 2E), or were wearing really heavy armor and shields (+3 Plate Armor and +3 Shield, AC -6, AC 26 in 3E terms.)

In which case, it's still not funny. It's a deadly serious game of Kill or Be Killed, of the grimmest type.

DM: The kobolds appear.
One party member: My character cannot be surprised. She may roll for initiative.
DM: Roll!
Her: Improved Initiative and High Dex. I won the roll. Fireball!
DM: The kobolds are killed.
Party: We may now roll.
DM: Roll!
Party: Some roll high initiative.
DM: 10 more kobolds appear behind you.
Party fighter who won initiative: With initiative, I perform a Bull Rush. I try to knock as many down as possible. If I survive their attacks, I'll pull a Power Attack with Great Cleave.
Party cleric who won initiative: Ranged attack with Cause Serious Wounds, dumping Divine Metamagic into it to make it affect multiple opponents.

Etc. Very serious, there. Not humorous as Tucker's Kobolds were meant to be.

[Edena_of_Neith]

Old_school_overlord, my hat's off to you.

Reading your post above, it seems to me you captured very nicely the spirit and essence of Tucker's Kobolds.

More power to you and your group. And, more fun. : )

[Celebrim]

Originally Posted by Edena_of_Neith

Because poison was so very lethal in OD&D, 1E, and 2E, and if the DM had really wanted Tucker's Kobolds to kill the party, it would have been simple enough:

DM:

A squadron of kobolds with readied hand crossbows with poisoned bolts appears. They have Surprise.
They all fire. 10 incoming poisoned bolts. 5 hit the fighter. Roll five saves versus Poison.

(fighter fails 2 of them, dies.)

That is an example of exactly why 'Tucker's Kobolds' don't ring true to me.

I've adventured as a 12th level character in 1st edition AD&D. A kobold with a hand crossbow even with surprise probably would need a 20 to hit you AC, and any M-U's would probably have stoneskin and/or protection from normal missiles up. So the expected result of 10 incoming poisoned bolts is zero hits. And a 12th level fighter with minimal magical protection would probably fail a saving throw versus poison only about 1 time in 5. So, each character would expect to be able to soak up about 100 poisoned crossbow bolts before dying (which for all but the most expensive insinuative poisons would take more than one round). Long before that would happen, clerics would be casting 'slow poison' on everyone (12 hour duration at this level), reviving newly dead characters to await treatment and protecting everyone else - and they'd do this and be ready for this precisely because they were used to poison being so deadly in 1st edition. They wouldn't have survived to 12th level if they weren't prepared to handle the whole party being poisoned by venomous hydras or teams of leveled drow commandos or what not.

Moreover, the chance of the kobolds achieving surprise wouldn't be that good anyway. Some waves would just die outright.

Tucker's Kobolds were not played in this spirit.

No, they certainly weren't. Because if they'd even been played in that fair of a spirit, the kobolds would have gone down hard and we'd never even have heard about them. 'Tucker's Kobolds' were played in a spirit far less fair, if perhaps somewhat less bloody minded, than your example, else they didn't have a chance of threatening a party of 12th level characters.

I agree with the point of Moore's editorial. Moore was trying to suggest that at higher levels, for the game to be challenging, the DM had to be creative. He was trying to suggest that high levels of challenge could be maintained through the upper levels by putting the characters at a tactical disadvantage. But his example is I think a very unfortunate one, because as someone whose played at that level I can't help but read the examples and think, 'That's only challenging because the DM was just cheating, fudging, and meta-gaming left and right, or else he's running a hyper low magic game where noone has magic armor, bags of holding, rings of protection, or anything, or else your whole party is a bunch of inexperienced novices that were just given high level characters rather than earning them, or some of all of that.'

Because in actual play, the M-U would be using telekinesis or gusts of wind to push those broom pushed piles of debris back over the kobolds, would be collapsing tunnels with transmute rock to mud and conjured earth elementals, would be killing off whole armies of kobolds with walls of fire, flash freezing rooms with cone of cold, knocking off dozens of them with sleep, frying narrow tunnels with lightning bolts, siccing invisible stalkers on the poor things, dropping cloud kills on them and so forth. One insect plague would keep the whole bunch of them busy for a very long time. Meanwhile, the fighters would need roughly a 2 to hit the archers through an arrow slit, while the kobolds would need roughly a 20 to hit. Kobolds would drop like flies and do virtually no damage.

So how did the DM make it work? Well, I suspect he 'cheated'. Those 'steel tipped bolts' conferred a special +3 bonus to hit the first time they were fired (afterwards they became blunt, naturally). The kobold archers probably had other special bonuses (they were all specialized in their weapon, they all had 16 DEX, they all gained a +2 tactical bonus to hit, or whatever). The kobolds archers could do a special 'split fire move' that violated the normal rules to avoid getting shot at. Every thing that the characters did was always interpretted in the worst possible light, failing to work or even back firing. Areas of effect were always assumed to catch the minimal number of kobolds. Everything the kobolds did was alwayer interpreted in the best possible light. Countermeasures to spells were sometimes invented on the fly. Kobold losses were always replaced at an exagerrated rate. Morale was never checked no matter how many scores or dozens of kobolds met Kurtulmak.

Meanwhile, the players are using tactics that suggest, among other things, that no one has a bag of holding - much less anything unusually good.

I'm not even sure we can trust Moore as a reliable narrator. For all I know he's exagerrating the situation to make a point, but I suspect based on what TSR actually published in 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords' that he isn't. I'm glad that they had fun, but it reminds me more of when some of my fellow players waxed nostalgically on terrible DMs with pet DM 'player characters' that repeatedly tormented the party and was essentially immune to any counter attack. They had fun too, but they also probably wouldn't have chosen to go back to that environment.

[SHARK]

Originally Posted by Celebrim

That is an example of exactly why 'Tucker's Kobolds' don't ring true to me.

I've adventured as a 12th level character in 1st edition AD&D. A kobold with a hand crossbow even with surprise probably would need a 20 to hit you AC, and any M-U's would probably have stoneskin and/or protection from normal missiles up. So the expected result of 10 incoming poisoned bolts is zero hits. And a 12th level fighter with minimal magical protection would probably fail a saving throw versus poison only about 1 time in 5. So, each character would expect to be able to soak up about 100 poisoned crossbow bolts before dying (which for all but the most expensive insinuative poisons would take more than one round). Long before that would happen, clerics would be casting 'slow poison' on everyone (12 hour duration at this level), reviving newly dead characters to await treatment and protecting everyone else - and they'd do this and be ready for this precisely because they were used to poison being so deadly in 1st edition. They wouldn't have survived to 12th level if they weren't prepared to handle the whole party being poisoned by venomous hydras or teams of leveled drow commandos or what not.

Moreover, the chance of the kobolds achieving surprise wouldn't be that good anyway. Some waves would just die outright.



No, they certainly weren't. Because if they'd even been played in that fair of a spirit, the kobolds would have gone down hard and we'd never even have heard about them. 'Tucker's Kobolds' were played in a spirit far less fair, if perhaps somewhat less bloody minded, than your example, else they didn't have a chance of threatening a party of 12th level characters.

I agree with the point of Moore's editorial. Moore was trying to suggest that at higher levels, for the game to be challenging, the DM had to be creative. He was trying to suggest that high levels of challenge could be maintained through the upper levels by putting the characters at a tactical disadvantage. But his example is I think a very unfortunate one, because as someone whose played at that level I can't help but read the examples and think, 'That's only challenging because the DM was just cheating, fudging, and meta-gaming left and right, or else he's running a hyper low magic game where noone has magic armor, bags of holding, rings of protection, or anything, or else your whole party is a bunch of inexperienced novices that were just given high level characters rather than earning them, or some of all of that.'

Because in actual play, the M-U would be using telekinesis or gusts of wind to push those broom pushed piles of debris back over the kobolds, would be collapsing tunnels with transmute rock to mud and conjured earth elementals, would be killing off whole armies of kobolds with walls of fire, flash freezing rooms with cone of cold, knocking off dozens of them with sleep, frying narrow tunnels with lightning bolts, siccing invisible stalkers on the poor things, dropping cloud kills on them and so forth. One insect plague would keep the whole bunch of them busy for a very long time. Meanwhile, the fighters would need roughly a 2 to hit the archers through an arrow slit, while the kobolds would need roughly a 20 to hit. Kobolds would drop like flies and do virtually no damage.

So how did the DM make it work? Well, I suspect he 'cheated'. Those 'steel tipped bolts' conferred a special +3 bonus to hit the first time they were fired (afterwards they became blunt, naturally). The kobold archers probably had other special bonuses (they were all specialized in their weapon, they all had 16 DEX, they all gained a +2 tactical bonus to hit, or whatever). The kobolds archers could do a special 'split fire move' that violated the normal rules to avoid getting shot at. Every thing that the characters did was always interpretted in the worst possible light, failing to work or even back firing. Areas of effect were always assumed to catch the minimal number of kobolds. Everything the kobolds did was alwayer interpreted in the best possible light. Countermeasures to spells were sometimes invented on the fly. Kobold losses were always replaced at an exagerrated rate. Morale was never checked no matter how many scores or dozens of kobolds met Kurtulmak.

Meanwhile, the players are using tactics that suggest, among other things, that no one has a bag of holding - much less anything unusually good.

I'm not even sure we can trust Moore as a reliable narrator. For all I know he's exagerrating the situation to make a point, but I suspect based on what TSR actually published in 'Axe of the Dwarvish Lords' that he isn't. I'm glad that they had fun, but it reminds me more of when some of my fellow players waxed nostalgically on terrible DMs with pet DM 'player characters' that repeatedly tormented the party and was essentially immune to any counter attack. They had fun too, but they also probably wouldn't have chosen to go back to that environment.

Greetings!

Good points, my friend, good points! I understand your criticisms of the *Tucker's Kobolds* much clearer now after reading your extensive critique. You know I'm *Old School* too. I agree generally with your critique--though I have to say also, that it seems to me that if a DM is going to challenge high-level PC's, *and* avoid simply using the endless treadmill of ever-stronger monsters--that some good creativity and improvisation of lower-level creatures, or monsters long-thought of as more *mundane* may be quite useful, as well as entertaining, true? Tucker's Kobolds seems to be an example in that direction to inspire DM's with ideas on how to do so. (Though, admittedly, some of the mechanics and reasoning may be suspect, as you noted well)

What do you think of the "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords", anyways? (I guess I never did pick that one up!)

However, as an aside to the *Endless Supply* problem that you note with *Tucker's Kobolds*--as well as some of the tactics--what if the DM were to say, well, the Kobolds are allied with *Sauron* and since Sauron wants to gain their absolute loyalty, has impressed them with the abundant supply of all manner of tools, equipment, oil, poisons, and so on? In addition, perhaps some master Assassins and a few *Black Wizards*, etc, etc, spent some time in the past training the kobold tribe?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Dausuul]

Originally Posted by WayneLigon

And customizing monsters is just a thing that is expected from DMs. I regularly give ghouls the ability to effectively spider-climb at will, because the image of skittering emaciated critters on the walls and ceilings is a horrifying one. It's not in the core rules, but it's just something I do.

Just a note - the 4E designers seem to agree with you. Ghouls in 4E have a climb speed.

[Edena_of_Neith]

(duplicate post deleted)

[Edena_of_Neith]

12th level? A large party of 12th level characters?
I had forgotten that. Please pardon me, it has been a long time.

I am at a loss, is this is true. I appreciate the capacity of 1E and 2E 12th level characters and 12th level multi-classed characters, and 0 level kobolds would have a really difficult time with them.
Then again, in my system, 12th level characters are extremely capable people. I allow things other DMs do not allow. The kobolds would not have stood a chance.

DM: 10 kobolds leap out, hand crossbows ready, poisoned bolts about to fire.
Party: (is not surprised, wins initiative easily.)
Fighter: 4 shots (2/1 attacks, 2 arrows per attack), all hit (4 kobolds dead.)
Other Fighter: Charge (some kobolds fire at him, the bolts bounce off his armor) and attack with my twin long swords.
Barbarian: Axe, sword.
DM: All those kobolds are dead. 10 leap out from behind you, crossbows at the ready.
Elven Fighter/Wizard: Fireball, 12d6 (all kobolds killed.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds leap out, crossbows ready.
Rogue: Greek fire, already lit, 2 bottles, then 2 more (all hit, all kobolds killed.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds leap out.
Cleric: The Reflective Wall from the Tome of Magic (2E). (the kobolds shoot, and hit themselves. Most die.)
Wizard: Magic missile, 6 missiles, 2 to each survivor.
Druid: I summon an Earth Elemental to deal with the next 10 (it will, obviously, do more than that.)
DM: As the earth elemental is killing them, 10 *more* kobolds appear.
Psionicist, 1E: Psionic Blast. (catches them all in blast, kills them.)
DM: 10 *more* kobolds show up.
Monk (yes, the pathetic monk) I attack Hand to Hand with 3 attacks (3 kobolds instantly dead.)
Illusionist: Spectral Force. Carrion crawlers - I was bit and paralyzed, so can simulate the effect - appear and attack.
Cavalier: Was I supposed to do something? Oh yes. Cavalier sword attack with all bonuses.
Ranger: Attack with both swords, 4 attacks.

DM: Stop, stop, stop! They're dead.
The Party: (yawns) How boring. Hey Tucker, you lame brain, get out here and die like a kobold. Or do we simply chase you down?

Tucker: (from a great distance) You'll never catch me!
Cleric: Invisible Stalker, fetch Tucker.

(invisible stalker returns with Tucker.)

The Party: You were saying?