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Running the Well of Demons in Thunderspire Labrynth -Warning Spoilers!
Warning Spoilers Below!
My group has reached the Well of Demons section of Thunderspire Labyrinth and I wanted to hear about others experiences in that area especially any tips on running the extended skill challenge in encounter W5: The Restless Dead with the three ghosts as it is left very wide open in terms of personality and dialogue (KotS gave me a little more to work with in that regard)
For those who are not familiar with it the encounter involves a trio of adventurers slain years ago in an attempt to cleanse the area of demonic influence. They failed and now their ghosts can only rest once they find worthy heroes to avenge them.
The ghosts are interested in evaluating the party’s goodness of spirit, resolution to see the task through and appropriate ability to do so.
I'm in the middle of running it even now. It's pretty cool. My group has made it through the ghostly encounter, the hall of introspection, and the bloodwhip room. That was nasty!
The skill challenge with the dead adventurers went OK. The nice thing about it is that failure isn't punishing (of course the players don't realize this). I just had the NPC's ask very pointed questions to each member of the party to help the roleplay. "Show me what you can do with that axe!" (athletics) "you, rogue, what skills do you bring to such a place" (bluff or diplomacy) "your arcane might must be keen to wrest the secrets from this place, show me what you know" (arcana) "I'll bet you couldn't find your way around a dungeon if you wanted to" (dungeoneering). I made a whole list of them, and just asked people in turn. Eventually people started being a bit more proactive.
If they fail a check have the ghost laugh in their face and challenge another person or something. I make sure that the players can see whether they succeeded or failed (I marked it on a board). All in all it went OK. Quiet players really get put on the spot, especially since I give bonuses to rolls if a player roleplays well. But it was fun.
For the mirror hall I made little mirrors out of cardboard and tinfoil to add to the mood (I use dungeon tiles so this helped). The rogue got put in the oubliette on the first turn, and tried to talk the hungy Gnoll down. I let him, which was a mistake, because they both spent the rest of the combat sitting there looking for a way out. By the end I had about half the party in oubliette. I added a few more skeletons because there is a lot of radiant damage in the party, and it seemed to make the encounter a bit more exciting.
For the blood room, I used red felt for the pools and set dungeon tiles on top of it. I spraypainted some old Mage Knight minotaurs gray for the statues. The characters hooked grapples to the horns and shimmied across, and when the traps were sprung people were falling in blood and battling evistros all over the place. About half of the party dropped and I was being nice. No TPK's or anything though, I'm looking forward to running the rest of the encounter. I made howling pllars out of cut up army men and hot glue, and I'm excited to see how they look when I drybrush them with a flesh tone. Hopefully the players think they're cool. Happy to post the rest here if anyone cares.
Yeah, the NPC skill challenge didn't go over well with our group. The DCs in the book are way too high, use the new DCs from the errata. Players hate missing a skill check with a roll of 17.
There was a great moment where our fighter showed off his strength by bench-pressing Brodo, Ulthand Deepgem's missing boar, which the party had been using as a pack animal. He failed the check, though and got pinned under Brodo. Still, it was a fun moment.
The party had a good time in the Well of Demons. It had a couple of memorable points like our warlord saving our ranger from falling in the pit in the center after being pushed by the green dragon and eventually throwing himself into a Shadowfell rift to save the two girls the Gnoll chief Maldrick was using for his sacrifical rituals.
The toughest battle for them was the Howling Pillar hall. They got caught in one of the center hallways between three carnage demons and the barlgura. I really love Carnage demons. It was a great fight with the party fighting back to back in the hall against hordes of really nasty beasts.
Oh, the mirror room has a problem if you ask me. Teleporting folks into a separate room really wreaked havok on our party when I ran it as a player. When I ran it, I changed the trapping mirrors so they pushed players randomly to another mirror like a big pinball machine. It worked a lot better than separating the party. It's not really clear how anyone outside can pull the party out and it is very likely the whole party will get trapped. - not fun. I'd recommend changing this so it doesn't separate the party.
The 3 ghost adventurers skill challenge didn't seem very organic to me. They have no ties to the overall plot at all (except that they got killed by the Guardian), and seemed shoehorned in to provide the PCs with some advance warning as to what awaited them.
Of course, going in blind to the Proving Grounds is suicide, so I reskinned the encounter to be a single ghost, a minotaur cleric of Kord known as "The Foundation" in Kordian legend. This tied in neatly with my focus on differing minotaur societies in the past (serene ascetics in the Horned Hold, crazed Baphomet-worshippers in the Well of Demons), and with my group's Kord-heavy bent (two of my four PC's worship Kord).
What's more, I have to admit I didn't run the encounter as a skill challenge, either. I had the rules for it worked up (similar to the published encounter), but it occurred at the start of the session, and I could tell the players were raring for some slaughter, so I simply had The Foundation give them some basic info on the Proving Grounds, namely:
- collect the 4 items
- place them simultaneously on circles
- bad stuff will happen, but this is the only way forward
This seemed to be enough warning, and the PC's have so far successfully gone through the Hall of Forced Introspection and the Hall of the Crimson Whip. The latter encounter was ridiculously fun, and VERY well-designed. The Wavestrider Boots I threw the wizard about three levels ago, and that everyone forgot about? Yeah, they came in MIGHTY handy.
I'm looking forward to this week when I run them through the Proving Grounds and the Guardian. Sure to be awesome.
For the blood room, I used red felt for the pools and set dungeon tiles on top of it. I spraypainted some old Mage Knight minotaurs gray for the statues. The characters hooked grapples to the horns and shimmied across, and when the traps were sprung people were falling in blood and battling evistros all over the place. About half of the party dropped and I was being nice. No TPK's or anything though, I'm looking forward to running the rest of the encounter. I made howling pllars out of cut up army men and hot glue, and I'm excited to see how they look when I drybrush them with a flesh tone. Hopefully the players think they're cool. Happy to post the rest here if anyone cares.
Cheers.
I like hearing how other people do props, i'll probably steal some of your ideas. I was able to find all the internal maps for Thunderspire on Cartographer's Guild, so i'll eventually get around to printing those out. But i like to add 3-D things and your Howling Pillar idea is a good one. But what gives the pillar "shape" Wouldn't the glue just make a big gooey mess?
My party got 3 failures right off the bat, so they didn't really get a lot of help...certainly made the combat longer since they thought they had to destroy all the traps in order to solve the room.
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My party actually had one death in the mirror room...most of the party got trapped in the separate room and the Warlock bravely made his way to the altar...(walking with his eyes closed). Thinking he'd be safe when he entered the curtain he was very supprised by the 2 Skeletons there, and quickly fell to them.
(I had a group of gnolls come by later and activate the release from that room, as well as begin a ritual to turn the warlock into a skeleton--the rest of the party was able to stop that and raise the warlock, luckily).
The other encounters went pretty easily for them--the rogue had Water walking put on him and he just ran in, grabbed the dagger parts and ran out of the Blood room. And the Pilar room they had no issues with (besides missing the hidden treasure there).
I made on prop for the Well. Got a styrofoam ball, put toothpicks in it, mounted it on a small dowl and painted it black...for the rolling Ball of Death that speeds along the inner ring. I got a good chuckle from my parties reaction when I put it out..."What the H*** is that!" and such...
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(NOTE: changing nick to Xeterog. Same person, just new and improved nick!)
I thought the skill challenge felt very ... tacked-on. Like someone said, "Hey, we need some more skill challenges here!" and then just added it at the last minute. It also seems like it's kinda shaky... There aren't even any guidelines for how to get successes with the dwarf.
Really, in the end, the only consistent way to get successes is to trade lore with the Wizard. And that drags on - the skill challenge lasts too long, in other words.
What's more, I don't think it's particularly vital information - other than that all the items need to be placed simultaneously.
OTOH, I love the skill challenge to tame the wild boar. I think that one's well-implemented.
And that drags on - the skill challenge lasts too long, in other words.
I agree. For us, the players lost interest before they obtained enough successes or failures. So when I realized it was no longer fun I simply ended it with the successes currently had.
I think my group is still learning how to play in a skill challange. There are often players just sitting there waiting for the end rather than attempting to figure out new and interesting uses for their skills.
I think in this particular example, many thought the only useful skill was going to be diplomacy dispite my hints otherwise. Those that didn't have diplomacy trained justed waited for the end.
I agree. For us, the players lost interest before they obtained enough successes or failures. So when I realized it was no longer fun I simply ended it with the successes currently had.
I think my group is still learning how to play in a skill challange. There are often players just sitting there waiting for the end rather than attempting to figure out new and interesting uses for their skills.
I think in this particular example, many thought the only useful skill was going to be diplomacy dispite my hints otherwise. Those that didn't have diplomacy trained justed waited for the end.
Ironically, there are still only a limited number of useful skills, as written. Diplomacy helps a very few times, Athletics helps once, Bluff may help once... and then it's all just Arcana and History.
What's more, it gives the DM little information to go off of... It's "So-and-so is like this!" but then never really translates that into game terms.
I just think it was a poorly-written skill challenge. It would have been just fine if it had been a 6-success version, or maybe explained better.
Well we haven't gotten there yet, my party has only gotten the Tome, obtaining it from Darkseeker's tiefling ex-wife. Nothing like running into an ex-wife in the middle of a dungeon crawl.
They are zeroing in on the hall of mirrors, cause they have been told that a captive friend is stuck there. Im thinking of changing the mirrors into a single occupant space, holding 1 person in suspended animation. I'm sure the PCs can find someone to exchange for which ever PC gets caught. Plus it would be an interesting way to get a wounded person to sanctuary. I also like the idea of a 1on1 fight in the midst of a larger battle. The PCs are accustomed to working as a group.
__________________ Game Quote:
"Shut up! a giant blue smurf eats your character...zzzz"
(sometimes its important to stop gaming and sleep)
"You all are the worst emissaries, ever!" the silver dragon declares, shaking with rage.
"Its a game, a game, I'm only playing. " E. Wiggen My PbP games , Roll Dice
Last edited by Evilhalfling; 13th January 2009 at 12:34 AM..
I like hearing how other people do props, i'll probably steal some of your ideas. I was able to find all the internal maps for Thunderspire on Cartographer's Guild, so i'll eventually get around to printing those out. But i like to add 3-D things and your Howling Pillar idea is a good one. But what gives the pillar "shape" Wouldn't the glue just make a big gooey mess?
I used an army man standing vertically as a base, then cut torsos, legs etc and glued them diagonally up it. They aren't perfect pillars but they look a bit unsettling. What's fun about them is when you look close you see dogs, firemen, grenades ETC. and though that isn't in theme with the game it's something interesting to look at. Plus if you're sloppy with the glue it makes fro a really goopy effect. Be ready to go through a lot of gluesticks though. Make sure to undercoat them black and dry brush them flesh.
Really for a prop used only once, they were fun. I don't think I spent more than thirty minutes on the lot of them, and the goopiness means rushing makes them look good.
I tried to compress 3 tests and the fight with the guardian to a single session.
it lasted 5:30 -130 am.
In the Hall of mirrors they lost a character to the opening trap. They used the curtains draped over their heads, to cross the chamber. They all grouped up again before opening the 2nd curtain. The curtains got shredded in the first skeleton explosion. The funniest bit was when the ranger headbutted a teleport mirror. Thus provoking the OA, so he could return to the battle.
They hit the chamber of Blood next, and the dwarf failed a jump and spent several rounds in trying unsuccessfully to climb out onto the statue base. I changed out the carnage demons for Dretch (HR Brute 4). They were great with a special ability which stopped anyone next to them from concentrating enough to get their normal minor action. This prevented marking, paladin challenges and one PC from drawing weapons. I really enjoyed making a low whine when ever a PC was taking actions adjacent to one of them.
the Sure Climbing feat (climb at normal speed) made item retrieval easy once the demons were killed off.
hmm - maybe I hand waved too much at the end, ah well on to the next -
The Howling pillars featured more Dretch! this time as minions.
The pillars were mostly a minor problem, and actually helped set the rogue for flanking once. The party was very frightened of the BarLarga, an earlier one nearling having killed the rogue.
The pillars spat out a new minion dretch each round, and the ranger just shot most of them with the spitting cobra stance.
The Guardian:
The party figured out the pools, and everyone had poison resistance for the test. The traps were mostly ineffective, the crossbow turrets hit twice, the fear projectors once, the elemental vortex twice, and the skeletons twice. Mostly the party concentrated around the opening door. I decided that the skeletons could move 1 each round, but not more than 1 space from starting potions. otherwise they would have made one attack the entire battle. The party wasted a large number of attacks on them - eventually overcoming the threshold 7 times. when the dragon finally breathed on them, they were reduced to 0 Attack bonus and quit even trying to attack.
The Dragon got hit with walking wounded, which really limited its mobility, and it was only able to damage 2 party members seriously. The Doom Sphere was avoided carefully, and made only a single attack the entire battle. It was a huge tactical concern for both dragon and PCs. Both sides spent a lot of time trying to force others into bad positions. It was the centerpiece of the battle.
They had the dragon past bloodied after 10 rounds, but I felt the players would have felt robbed of the kill if it just vanished. So I extended the fight to 14 rounds, and they finally killed it, and took the head as a trophy.
2 problems with the ball: I moved it 12 each round instead of 24. Secondly it became very predictable, as the track divided evenly by 12. So it always stopped at the same place. Increasing the speed to 13 would have added more randomness - although realizing it was taking double moves each round might have made the speed so fast that this would matter less.
The party loved the adventure, even with the grind at the end.
__________________ Game Quote:
"Shut up! a giant blue smurf eats your character...zzzz"
(sometimes its important to stop gaming and sleep)
"You all are the worst emissaries, ever!" the silver dragon declares, shaking with rage.
"Its a game, a game, I'm only playing. " E. Wiggen My PbP games , Roll Dice
Last edited by Evilhalfling; 19th January 2009 at 06:31 AM..
Reason: added 2 more encounter descriptions.
I thought that the trapping mirrors would be too much, so I decided that the oubliette could only hold one person at a time - one goes in, one goes out. The gnoll comes out when the first party member is trapped, then when the second party member is trapped they get some idea about what is actually happening and realise that they don't want to kill the gnoll, they want to trap him - which the burly dragonborn fighter eventually manages to do.
For the rest of it, I allowed them to play 'averting their eyes' which effectively gave them -4 to hit and -4 to all their defences - which made the skeletons a more credible threat, but kept them safe from the mirrors. I made the handprint a deactivater for the mirrors to turn them off for a while after someone had successfully reached the altar.
Cheers
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"It makes as much sense as having Batman kill his parents and then go on to fight mutants from another dimension." - Rykion
Just want to share my experience with you guys.
Well of Demons was the most interesting part of the whole adventure. I and my players like 3 test room (blade, mask and bell). Party consist of paladin (defender), ranger (striker), warlock (striker), warlord (leader) and invoker(controller). "HALL OF ENFORCED INTROSPECTION" wasn't hard at all. Paladin was teleported to the oubeliette of empty mind, but he succeed to warn party about danger pillars, so all the rest party went with closed eyes to the altar in the chamber's western end by rule of left hand. There, they defeated two boneshard skeletons and took the mask. The funy is that, elf ranger decide to wear this mask, after she found out that it give darkvision.
HALL OF THE CRIMSON WHIP was a bit harder. Party decide, that paladin should go by himself only, other party will only cover him by range attacks (ranger, warlock, invoker) and support (warlord), since he has great defences, resistances, lots of hp and hs. Elf ranger disabled first minotaur statue. Paladin used athletic skill to jump as much as he could. Paladin almost didn't take damage from blood pool, since he has 5 poison resistance, as well as from statue and evistro because of his 24 AC. He didn't fight with them, just leave area using double moves, while other party support him and attack enemies from platform.
HALL OF THE HOWLING PILLARS most the most fun from three trials. Random effects of pillars was exciting, because of different effects and good descriptions. Whole party started the fight with demons. Pillars do not have much effect except screaming warp, which was aslo funy due to it's random nature. After several rounds party took position in which almost all pillars attack can't reach them, so they killed all demons and took treasure, bell.
PROVING GROUNDS disappointed me. Party found out that green pool give resistance 5 to poison, so guardians ongoing damage didn''t work. Also, party was aware of traps, so they decided to not split. They used ropes to place all items on magic circles, while whole party was in center of proving grounds wating for something from hole in the floor (its also obvious). Guarding was not chalenging, because he can't make any formidable damage (ongoing poison didn't work, his attacks only 1d8+5), also he has low defences 21/17/19/17 and 260 hp. Party lay down him for three rounds using daily powers, action points, encounter powers. The only great opportunity of guardian was to throw down character to the pint using Luring Glare, but he failed it.
PS English is not my native language, so excuse me for my mistakes.
Last edited by iyalovoi; 8th June 2009 at 11:25 PM..
Reason: mistakes
I'm in the middle of running it even now. It's pretty cool. My group has made it through the ghostly encounter, the hall of introspection, and the bloodwhip room. That was nasty!
<snip>
For the blood room, I used red felt for the pools and set dungeon tiles on top of it. I spraypainted some old Mage Knight minotaurs gray for the statues. The characters hooked grapples to the horns and shimmied across, and when the traps were sprung people were falling in blood and battling evistros all over the place. About half of the party dropped and I was being nice. No TPK's or anything though, I'm looking forward to running the rest of the encounter. I made howling pllars out of cut up army men and hot glue, and I'm excited to see how they look when I drybrush them with a flesh tone. Hopefully the players think they're cool. Happy to post the rest here if anyone cares.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorTeX
The other encounters went pretty easily for them--the rogue had Water walking put on him and he just ran in, grabbed the dagger parts and ran out of the Blood room. And the Pilar room they had no issues with (besides missing the hidden treasure there).
Quote:
Originally Posted by iyalovoi
HALL OF THE CRIMSON WHIP was a bit harder. Party decide, that paladin should go by himself only, other party will only cover him by range attacks (ranger, warlock, invoker) and support (warlord), since he has great defences, resistances, lots of hp and hs. Elf ranger disabled first minotaur statue. Paladin used athletic skill to jump as much as he could. Paladin almost didn't take damage from blood pool, since he has 5 poison resistance, as well as from statue and evistro because of his 24 AC. He didn't fight with them, just leave area using double moves, while other party support him and attack enemies from platform.
As a player, I can say that my group was incredibly aggravated by the Crimson Whip room. For my group, they stayed at the door while my Wizard "ghetto flew" with Levitate to grab the items and Mage Hand so he didn't have to come down. The others tried at first to jump across the islands, but some bad rolls and some bad guys put a stop to that real quick. If we had actually bothered to fight the demons, it would have been bad... maybe not TPK, but bad.
I'm running the Hall of the Crimson Whip this weekend and I'm pretty excited, mostly because I got some Goristros to be the statues. I think I'll use the felt for blood too, that seems like a cool idea.
It sounds like it works pretty well, but I'm not quite sure how I'm going to modify it for my larger group (7 players). I'm thinking of making one or two of the Evistros elite, but perhaps this encounter is tough enough without bumping up the threats. If you've played through it, it would be great to get some input before my game.
As a player, I can say that my group was incredibly aggravated by the Crimson Whip room. For my group, they stayed at the door while my Wizard "ghetto flew" with Levitate to grab the items and Mage Hand so he didn't have to come down. The others tried at first to jump across the islands, but some bad rolls and some bad guys put a stop to that real quick. If we had actually bothered to fight the demons, it would have been bad... maybe not TPK, but bad.
Just DM'd my own group through this room last week. They played it very tentatively at first, and the Rogue started showing off with his awesome acrobatics to reach the plinths about 10 squares ahead of his compatriots, who next round proceeded to activate all three of the hidden demons.
Suffice to say we all thought the Rogue was a goner, and he was two death saves down before the Fighter managed to get over to him and stuff a healing potion down his throat.
Tense, very exciting, and very dangerous room. Everyone loved it.
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